Schoolio's Movie Corner

[amyzzz]

haha, I worked at the cine capri then and saw the movie there a couple times too. I hope I wasn't one of the blubberers.

[chrislasf]

he did a good job, but a lot of that seemed to be writing or the character itself and not him.

Actually I feel the exact opposite. I didnt think his dialogue was that poignantly written. He elevated and created the character with his delivery. His mannerisms. The calculated way in which he cackled. The way he licked the inside of his scars every time he was about to say something that demanded you listen. The sort of thing that deserves this adulation. Hopkins won an Oscar for a villain that had chapters more to say. With 5 months left in 2008, I expect and think Ledger deserves a nomination.

[chairmenmeow47]

Actually I feel the exact opposite. I didnt think his dialogue was that poignantly written. He elevated and created the character with his delivery. His mannerisms. The calculated way in which he cackled. The way he licked the inside of his scars every time he was about to say something that demanded you listen. The sort of thing that deserves this adulation. Hopkins won an Oscar for a villain that had chapters more to say. With 5 months left in 2008, I expect and think Ledger deserves a nomination.

i see your point that he had mannerism that were "his" and not a result of writing or anything like that. i guess i just wasn't as blown away by it as everyone else. i liked this concept of the joker better than the cartoony style though.

[garrett222]

i see your point that he had mannerism that were "his" and not a result of writing or anything like that. i guess i just wasn't as blown away by it as everyone else. i liked this concept of the joker better than the cartoony style though.

I'm more toward you. I liked Batman Begins more than this. Heath Ledger was really great, and it was worth bringing back the joker, but the role didn't have enough meat to garner a nomination. If ledger was alive the word oscar wouldn't be used other than a 'dark' horse

[iv3rdawG]

I really don't think there's been another performance this year that's come close to his.

[chrislasf]

but the role didn't have enough meat to garner a nomination.

Are you talking about screen time because there have been truck loads of supporting actors and actresses who have won with considerably less.

[downingthief]

Not saying he should win, but he should be nominated, IMO. And, I think he would deserve the nod if he were alive.

[chairmenmeow47]

I really don't think there's been another performance this year that's come close to his.

and that may be why he wins. i think the combination of the hype, his death and the lack of other notable performances may get him the oscar. i guess i just wasn't as WOW'ed as everyone else about him.

but ya know, the screen time thing is a good point. while i enjoyed the lack of exposition and setting up of the joker character, there wasn't much to get emotionally invested in with the joker.

[schoolofruckus]

I don't believe my impression of his performance would be any different if he were still alive. To be honest, I kind of forgot he was dead for about half of the movie.

That said, the talk of him deserving Oscar nominations or victories is premature. Do we know that we won't be lucky enough to get 5 better supporting performances between now and January?

And I do respect you all for being willing to stand up against the hyperbole tsunami that has preceded this movie and this performance. I'm glad I felt completely satisfied by the movie, and completely impressed with Ledger's work; I hate being the one to not get or enjoy the merits of a film that everyone else can't stop loving on.

[schoolofruckus]

Are you talking about screen time because there have been truck loads of supporting actors and actresses who have won with considerably less.

I actually quite liked that Nolan kept him somewhat shrouded in mystery, and wasn't afraid to step back from him for periods of time. It gave me time to miss him when he wasn't onscreen.

[downingthief]

I actually quite liked that Nolan kept him somewhat shrouded in mystery, and wasn't afraid to step back from him for periods of time. It gave me time to miss him when he wasn't onscreen.

I am glad at this, as well. I was worried going in that it would have been all Joker.

One performance that shouldn't get overlooked is Oldman's. He makes Gordon real, not some goody-two shoes cop. There has yet to be a role that I have seen him in that I did not like.

[iv3rdawG]

Yeah, when looking at the other Batman films, mainly Batman and Batman Returns Gordon was hardly apart of them. I'm glad he got the screen time he deserved in The Dark Knight.

[RotationSlimWang]

Getting way more credit than it deserves in certain respects. Go into more detail later. Heath was a mistake, like I said from the beginning. I don't remember more than one laugh from THE FUCKING JOKER the whole movie.

Oh, and I fell asleep for the last ten minutes. Had some badass parts. They fucked up Two-Face.

[menikmati]

Heath a mistake? No way.

[bmack86]

I just watched the trailer for Watchmen. I'm hoping, first, that it's a LONG movie, because they can't cut a whole lot. They can cut out the Pirate comic, but other than that almost everything is 100% essential. Dr. Manhattan looked spot on, and I hope they make Rorschach as creepy as I always pictured him. That guy is the best antihero ever in a comic.

[Hopeless Semantic]

I don't know much about The Watchmen in general, but seeing that preview during The Dark Knight sold me on catching it in earnest. I guess I do have time to catch up with the comic, don't I?

[bmack86]

Yup. Once you start reading it you won't be able to put it down. Such great storytelling.

[wmgaretjax]

I don't remember more than one laugh from THE FUCKING JOKER the whole movie.

But then... wait... the Joker was never about laughs...

On The Watchmen, I hear they changed the ending. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU CHANGE THE ENDING TO THE WATCHMEN? sorry.

[algunz]

I watched Chitty Chitty Bang Bang today. I haven't seen it in atleast 25 years. OMG, I love Dick Van Dyke.

[iv3rdawG]

I just got back from seeing E.T. in the theatre. That is such a brilliant film. Probably one of my favorite kids' films ever and one of my favorites of Spielberg, too. I'd even go and say that it has John Williams' best work, it's just so effective and comes on at the perfect times. Easily the best child acting and cast I've seen. And Drew Barrymore.. just so cute. I can't praise it enough. And seeing it on the big screen made it even better.

[menikmati]

I saw it when it was rereleased....those extra scenes were so shitty. Thankfully the DVD had both the original and rerelease on it.

[RotationSlimWang]

But then... wait... the Joker was never about laughs...

On The Watchmen, I hear they changed the ending. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU CHANGE THE ENDING TO THE WATCHMEN? sorry.

Knew they'd change the ending, they'd never let that shit fly. That's why I tried not to get excited.

The Joker laughed. He had a mad cackle. It was one of his defining characteristics. There is a middle ground between Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger, one where the Joker isn't a fucking emo pussbag who gives multiple explanations of why he's got those scars. The Joker does not make pouty faces.

[wmgaretjax]

There is a middle ground between Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger, one where the Joker isn't a fucking emo pussbag who gives multiple explanations of why he's got those scars.

The Hollywood blockbuster of the year just went over your head, how does it feel?

[RotationSlimWang]

No, it didn't. If you've read The Killing Joke you ought to realize they were already way, way under what they could have done. Don't tell me shit went over my head.

[wmgaretjax]

No, it didn't. If you've read The Killing Joke you ought to realize they were already way, way under what they could have done. Don't tell me shit went over my head.

way under? is rape critical to showing his dementia? and I was referring to the fact that you called Joker's little stories "explanations," when they couldn't be farther from such.

And the Killing Joke is the perfect example of how perfect this movie captured (along with Dark Knight Returns) a Joker that wasn't a fucking cartoon character.

[atom heart]

The Dark Knight was good, but it was kept from greatness, in my opinion, with its length. It could've done without so much of the mob stuff, and the rather detailed introductions of characters who ended up Joker fodder (like the unscrupulous Chinese business man). If it had been pared down to its pithy and intense core- the Joker and Dent, it would have been outstanding.

[wmgaretjax]

The Dark Knight was good, but it was kept from greatness, in my opinion, with its length. It could've done without so much of the mob stuff, and the rather detailed introductions of characters who ended up Joker fodder (like the unscrupulous Chinese business man). If it had been pared down to its pithy and intense core- the Joker and Dent, it would have been outstanding.

SPOILERS SOME

I agree. I think the only mob moment needed was the first time they encounter the Joker. With that, we have all the introduction we need into the Joker's role in the crime community. With that you could kill all the Chinese guy stuff, and change the ending to not have the stupid sonar shit.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

I don't remember more than one laugh from THE FUCKING JOKER the whole movie.

Uh...

[whynotsmile99]

SPOILERS SOME

I agree. I think the only mob moment needed was the first time they encounter the Joker. With that, we have all the introduction we need into the Joker's role in the crime community. With that you could kill all the Chinese guy stuff, and change the ending to not have the stupid sonar shit.

yea, the sonar thing was dumb. I didn't get that at all. Stupid, pointless, and way over the top silly. It took me out of how relativly serious Nolan handled the rest of the movie. It felt like I was watching an Xman or Spiderman movie, or perhaps even that awful new Superman movie.

[downingthief]

Well, it IS based on a comic book... :)

[iv3rdawG]

Surfer, Dude trailer starring Matthew McConaughey.

YPwFpYrPv94

[rage patton]

I would argue Heath Ledger should win best Actor, not just supporting. He should atleast win best supporting actor though

[thinnerair]

yea, the sonar thing was dumb. I didn't get that at all. Stupid, pointless, and way over the top silly. It took me out of how relativly serious Nolan handled the rest of the movie. It felt like I was watching an Xman or Spiderman movie, or perhaps even that awful new Superman movie.

The sonar bit had a deeper message, man.
Think about it.

[whynotsmile99]

Surfer, Dude trailer starring Matthew McConaughey.

YPwFpYrPv94



woah

http://www.bastardly.com/wp-content/2006-image-uploads/2007/06/kd-aubert06130701.jpg

[downingthief]

I'll take two, please.

[Down Rodeo]

I agree. I think the only mob moment needed was the first time they encounter the Joker. With that, we have all the introduction we need into the Joker's role in the crime community. With that you could kill all the Chinese guy stuff, and change the ending to not have the stupid sonar shit.

*SPOILERS*

Yeah, he could have cut the stuff with the Chinese guy in exchange for maybe some expanded scenes after Rachel's death. That was a pretty tragic event that was kind of glossed over at the end of the movie.

[whynotsmile99]

*SPOILERS*

Yeah, he could have cut the stuff with the Chinese guy in exchange for maybe some expanded scenes after Rachel's death. That was a pretty tragic event that was kind of glossed over at the end of the movie.

every time I read criticism of the film, I'm always nodding my head in in agreence(spelling?) I really need to see it again. I still think I'll love it, but I certainly don't remember as many negative aspects in Batman Begins.

I watched that last week and thought the pacing was perfect

[bmack86]

But then... wait... the Joker was never about laughs...

On The Watchmen, I hear they changed the ending. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU CHANGE THE ENDING TO THE WATCHMEN? sorry.

Well, if there are more pre-reports along those lines, I'll be hard pressed to get into a theater to see that, and it's one of my all time favorite stories. When I first read that in 5th grade, it melted my mind.

Maybe they change the VERY ending? Because that ending is what makes the story so shocking.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

SPOILERS


Well, in the David Hayter draft, which is apparently what this film's screenplay was built on, the ending re: Ozymandias's plan and New York dying is intact, but it's changed in that Adrian gets killed. And not only that, but he gets killed in a dumb joke death, they accidentally set off the exhaust of the ship again and burn him. Terrible.

[bmack86]

That's bullshit. He's supposed to be the "hero" behind the whole thing. He'd better not die, otherwise that will ruin the whole ending.

[RotationSlimWang]

way under? is rape critical to showing his dementia? and I was referring to the fact that you called Joker's little stories "explanations," when they couldn't be farther from such.

And the Killing Joke is the perfect example of how perfect this movie captured (along with Dark Knight Returns) a Joker that wasn't a fucking cartoon character.

No, he's not a fucking cartoon character--he's a deranged and violent psychopath whose entire persona is rooted in thinking murder and destruction is good for a laugh. He's not just supposed to be some dude with an inexplicable ability to pull off terroristic acts more complicated and convoluted than 9/11 with no joke to it.

They took the Joker and removed his shtick. In its place they left a fuckload of incredibly contrived explosions and other bullshit and a whiny asshole. The point of Killing Joke isn't the rape. It's "the only difference between you and me is one bad day." Joker's supposed to be about drawing other people into his own demented world--the first Batman knew that, at least.

This time he was just Osama Bin Laden in fucking makeup.

[schoolofruckus]

I actually think this movie did a great job of drawing parallels between the Joker and Batman, and asking where the line was between the two. The ENTIRE point of his plot was to plunge the world into the same chaotic state that he lived his whole life in, as well as proving Batman's culpability in it.

Also, he laughed at a ton of his own "jokes", and I laughed at quite a few of them as well.

[sbessiso]

I actually think this movie did a great job of drawing parallels between the Joker and Batman, and asking where the line was between the two.

No shit! they were cramming and cramming and CRAMMING this message down our throat, as if Nolan didn't trust us enough to kinda, I dunno, GET, the symbolism involved

[RotationSlimWang]

Really? The entire point? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that The Joker's world was characterized by explosions. I'll admit they did a fairly decent job of setting up such an example as you discuss with that highly, highly improbably boat scenario at the end, but it was still a little fucking ridiculous. The Joker is supposed to be personal.

And I laughed at plenty of things he did, but he did not. Gabe I'll bet you fifty bucks you can't find more than 10 Joker laughs in that whole fucking movie. The only remotely joke-ish thing I can truly recall him doing is being in a nurse's outfit, which was good for a chuckle but still isn't hardly Joker.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

That's bullshit. He's supposed to be the "hero" behind the whole thing. He'd better not die, otherwise that will ruin the whole ending.

It really would ruin the whole thing. Watchmen's greatness is in its complexity, so to try to simplify things by making Adrian an easy villain and killing him off would be an insult to Moore's accomplishments. In addition, it renders his conversation with Manhattan irrelevant, which is pretty lame. I had a few other problems with what I read of the Hayter draft (for some reason "I did it 35 minutes ago" turns into "I did it just now". Why change that?), but the ending was pretty badly screwed up. Here's hoping they fixed it for the movie.

[Blinken]

No, he's not a fucking cartoon character--he's a deranged and violent psychopath whose entire persona is rooted in thinking murder and destruction is good for a laugh. He's not just supposed to be some dude with an inexplicable ability to pull off terroristic acts more complicated and convoluted than 9/11 with no joke to it.

They took the Joker and removed his shtick. In its place they left a fuckload of incredibly contrived explosions and other bullshit and a whiny asshole. The point of Killing Joke isn't the rape. It's "the only difference between you and me is one bad day." Joker's supposed to be about drawing other people into his own demented world--the first Batman knew that, at least.

This time he was just Osama Bin Laden in fucking makeup.

He did pull people into his own demented world, look at Harvey Dent. He was the White Knight of Gotham until the Joker was finished with him. That was the point of the boat as well, he wanted the people to kill each other because it validates his existence. This is also why he wanted Batman to run his over with the Batcycle, to turn Batman against his own moral code. This Joker is very much the same one from A Killing Joke.

You mentioned the different stories about how he got his scares, that is right out of the Killing Joke. The Joker says "Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" He uses his perception of his past to his advantage, using different stories for different effects.

[sbessiso]

Randy, I love that you love the original Batman (or at least Jack's Joker), it really sunk in during The Dark Knight that i'm still trying to accept this Batman, my heart will always be with Burton's films.

[RotationSlimWang]

The stories weren't that fucking interesting. First one was alright, all downhill from there.

He didn't do that to Dent intentionally, it was incidental. This is exactly my point. A proper Joker would have made it his goal to corrupt Dent, not kill him.

[sbessiso]

oh fuck, I did read that they changed the Watchmen ending, which just boggles my brain, i'm in denial about it

edit: where can I find the movie ending of Watchmen? or is that not known yet?

[Blinken]

I did like the first story the best to.

His goal was to corrupt Dent, that is why he told Batman the wrong address. He knew Batman would save Rachel, and that this would send Dent over the deep end.

[RotationSlimWang]

No, that doesn't work though. If Batman hadn't dragged Dent out of the building Dent would have been vaporized. That was the scenario he set up. See, now you're misinterpreting the convenient course of events things took to have been intentional.

[stinkbutt]

I did like the first story the best to.

His goal was to corrupt Dent, that is why he told Batman the wrong address. He knew Batman would save Rachel, and that this would send Dent over the deep end.

He didn't give him the wrong address he chose to save Dent over Rachel

[kreutz2112]

The Joker tricked Batman into going to save Dent instead of Rachael. He knew there was a greater chance of Batman saving either one over the the cops saving either one. The Joker knew Rachael would die. Rachaels death did corrupt Dent and her death was a result of the Jokers mind games with Batman. So in a sense he did corrupt Dent by killing Rachael.

[kreutz2112]

He didn't give him the wrong address he chose to save Dent over Rachel

he did give him the wrong address. He gave batman dents address and batman thought it was Rachaels address.

[stinkbutt]

No Batman even said that he saved him because Dent was the future for Gotham

[rage patton]

The Joker knew Batman would make it in time to save Racheal... and he knew the police wouldn't make it in time to save Dent. That is why he gave Batman the wrong adress. Techincally Dent could have died right there, but The Joker knew that wasn't going to happen. However, it was quite convenient to the Joker that Dent became disfigured.

[kreutz2112]

no. you are wrong, stinkbutt. The Joker switched the addresses to trick batman out of saving Rachael.

[kreutz2112]

The Joker knew Batman would make it in time to save Racheal... and he knew the police wouldn't make it in time to save Dent. That is why he gave Batman the wrong adress. Techincally Dent could have died right there, but The Joker knew that wasn't going to happen. However, it was quite convenient to the Joker that Dent became disfigured.

is there an echo in here?

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

What? kreutz is right, when Gordon asks Batman who he's going after, he says Rachel. So unless Batman changed his mind on the road, he was given the wrong address. It actually makes a lot of sense this way, since in giving the wrong address The Joker was using Rachel to corrupt both Dent and potentially Batman, as opposed to just offing Dent.

[Blinken]

Originally the Joker just wanted to kill Dent but I think his plans changed as time went on. Once Batman showed up to save Dent from the Armored truck is when the plans changed.

Joker expected Batman to save him though, he didn't count on Batman falling. The key to this being intentional lies with the Joker switching the Locations of Dent and Rachel. Why would he do that if not to fuck with Batman and Dent. He saw Batman run off to save Rachel at the party and leave everyone else behind. I think the Joker is smart enough to see that there is some connection between the two. And to know of the relationship between Dent and Rachel.

He didn't expect Dent to get his face burnt up. Why else would he go visit Dent in the Hospital than to finish his handy work, and complete the transformation from good to bad.

[rage patton]

Sorry... I got distracted for a minute and didn't press "post" until a couple minutes after I wrote what I said. In that time you replied... but at least we are on the same page.

[kreutz2112]

yeah. NMH got it too.

[stinkbutt]

Did no one hear when Batman said something to the same degree as This City Needs You

[Blinken]

It was a lie to make Dent feel better about surviving. He told the cops that he was going after Rachel, and for them to go after Dent.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

spoilers

What is he going to say instead? I wanted to save your girlfriend instead but The Joker tricked me? The city did need Dent, it's clear that Batman believed this. Why else would he do take the blame for the murders?

[rage patton]

You people can't actually Batman meant to save Dent. Gordon came up to him and asked him who he was going after. Batman clearly said "Racheal" and told them to go after Dent. Batman was so caught up in rage, he didn't even think about the possibility that The Joker would have given him the wrong adress.

[stinkbutt]

Fuck that Batman is cold and has and will keep sacrificing shit for the good of the city him taking the blame at the end just proves my point that he intentionally saved Dent

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

No it doesn't. Batman isn't cold, if anything this movie suggests the opposite. I mean he comes this close to quitting just because he can't deal with having the Joker's murders on his conscience.

[RotationSlimWang]

You really don't think there's any possibility that Batman chose the betterment of life for all Gotham and more importantly his chance to get out of being Batman? Personally I thought that was one of the only interesting choices Batman made the whole movie--if it was all just a ruse, well, that makes it even lamer.

[kreutz2112]

spoilers

What is he going to say instead? I wanted to save your girlfriend instead but The Joker tricked me? The city did need Dent, it's clear that Batman believed this. Why else would he do take the blame for the murders?

I agree. Going into the movie I thought Dent was going to be crooked or something. But, he really did believe in cleaning up the city and Batman believed this and in Dent too. It wasn't until Rachael died that Dent lost his will to do good. He was vengeful and the Joker took advantage of that.

[schoolofruckus]

Really? The entire point? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that The Joker's world was characterized by explosions. I'll admit they did a fairly decent job of setting up such an example as you discuss with that highly, highly improbably boat scenario at the end, but it was still a little fucking ridiculous. The Joker is supposed to be personal.

And I laughed at plenty of things he did, but he did not. Gabe I'll bet you fifty bucks you can't find more than 10 Joker laughs in that whole fucking movie. The only remotely joke-ish thing I can truly recall him doing is being in a nurse's outfit, which was good for a chuckle but still isn't hardly Joker.

The only time I really remember laughing is his magic trick. He may not have laughed himself, but are you telling me that there was nothing remotely joke-ish about it? I can't remember any of the other specific things that made me chuckle, but there were plenty

If there were too many explosions for you, I can't really debate that. But I don't think there were nearly as many as you seem to remember. Certainly not enough to say that "blow shit up" was the Joker's defining objective.

[RotationSlimWang]

The only time I really remember laughing is his magic trick. He may not have laughed himself, but are you telling me that there was nothing remotely joke-ish about it?

If there were too many explosions for you, I can't really debate that. But I don't think there were nearly as many as you seem to remember. Certainly not enough to say that "blow shit up" was the Joker's defining objective.

Did he blow up the bank? Don't even remember. But without that there was the two Dent/Rachael blasts--at the plot break--and the intention of two blasts on the ships. He called in a bomb threat just to have the place evacuated so that he could make them blow each other up. This is a lot of fucking terrorism subtext, even in a 9/11 world.

What was the magic trick again?

[stinkbutt]

What was the magic trick again?

The pencil

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

off memory:
--he laughs at the pencil trick
--he laughs after he drops Rachel
--"Tonight people will die, and I'm a man of my word"
--he laughs during Batman's beating the shit out of him in the interrogation room
--he laughs when seemingly falling to his death
--his last thing in the movie is him laughing as he hangs upside down

Those are just specific instances I remember, I'm pretty sure there are more examples in the film. I'll try to remember to pay more attention to it the next time I see it.

[schoolofruckus]

Did he blow up the bank? Don't even remember. But without that there was the two Dent/Rachael blasts--at the plot break--and the intention of two blasts on the ships. He called in a bomb threat just to have the place evacuated so that he could make them blow each other up. This is a lot of fucking terrorism subtext, even in a 9/11 world.

What was the magic trick again?

If you missed his magic trick, it's easier to understand why you didn't love Heath. Granted, it was a very short incident, but probably the most memorable single bit in the movie.


SPOILERZ....although I don't know why anyone would bother reading this thread right now if they haven't seen it already



He didn't blow up the bank. He drove the school bus out of it and went on his merry way.

[schoolofruckus]

off memory:
--he laughs at the pencil trick
--he laughs after he drops Rachel
--"Tonight people will die, and I'm a man of my word"
--he laughs during Batman's beating the shit out of him in the interrogation room
--he laughs when seemingly falling to his death
--his last thing with him in the movie is him laughing as he hangs upside down

Those are just specific instances I remember, I'm pretty sure there are more examples in the film. I'll try to remember to pay more attention to it the next time I see it.

Thank you. I'm pretty damn sure this was just the tip of the iceberg.

Also, every time he told a story about his past, his facial scars, etc....it was pretty obvious to me that he was fucking with whoever he was telling the story to.

[RotationSlimWang]

Actually I think NMH got them all. And I remember the pencil, just didn't remember the magic trick line. So is that all we've got? One improvised instance?

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't get them all, but I guess the answer to that will have to wait until someone sees the fim again.

[RotationSlimWang]

And I really don't think falling and hanging should both count as separate instances.

[stinkbutt]

I think I might see it on the IMAX tonight so I'll keep track

[RotationSlimWang]

It did look really good in Imax, I can't argue with that.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

And I really don't think falling and hanging should both count as separate instances.

Why? Falling, he's laughing because he thinks Batman's going to let him die. The second instance of laughter has more to do with his corruption of Dent, and how even though the boat plan failed he still managed to "win". There's an entire conversation between Batman and The Joker that separates both fits of laughter.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

One of my first thoughts after walking out of the theater was that it would be great if this could be the final Batman film. I won't deny that there's potential in a third movie based on the threads they leave dangling, but I personally thought the very ending was a perfect summation of Batman's sacrifices and the nature of his heroism. A perfect note to end the series, although of course there will be more. Anyways, this article is about something like that, it's an interesting read.

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/article/do_we_need_a_christopher_nolan_batman_trilogy

I will say though that if there has to be a third movie, this guy's idea for it would be awesome. It probably won't happen, but it would be great.

[schoolofruckus]

Hey! He stole one of my ideas! (http://coachella.com/forum/showpost.php?p=680303&postcount=182)

I see the potentially interesting aspect of making a film about an older Batman and an older Joker (possibly having just escaped from Arkham), particularly because that's the only way to feasibly have someone else play him at this point. But I can't imagine that being a popular- or widely-digested enough idea to escape the "third film sucks" stigma.

[Blinken]

It did look really good in Imax, I can't argue with that.

Nolan said that he wants to film his next movie completley in IMAX.

[RotationSlimWang]

He filmed this one completely in IMAX I'm pretty sure. Or at least virtually completely. There's no real reason not to, shrinking the resolution down isn't hard.

[Blinken]

No he only filmed about 35 - 40 minutes in IMAX, that is why it took up the whole screen in some shots and not in others. IMAX film is crazy expensive, and the cameras are huge and extremly loud. I think the cost of is 4x greater to film on IMAX instead of on regular film. This was more a test to see how feasable it is to use IMAX cameras to film a real movie.

[RotationSlimWang]

I don't remember the size of the screen display changing at all. Weird.

Anyway, we need a solid answer on whether or not Batman meant to be saving Dent, 'cause if he didn't then I'm really annoyed.

[kreutz2112]

The answer is:

Batman unintentionally saved Dent. He meant to save Rachael. The Joker tricked him into saving Dent.

[RotationSlimWang]

That's fucking lame and a half.

[kreutz2112]

why? I dont want to backread. Give a definitive answer as to why thats lame.

[Blinken]

Yeah the shift in aspect ratio was very smooth I was worried about it being jaring but I hardly noticed it at all.

[chairmenmeow47]

it's lame because there's no point in being batman if the choice of "save the city or save the girl" comes down to saving the girl. why put on the suit? go get married and pop babies out of rachel's clown-car if that's what you're into.

[RotationSlimWang]

You really don't think there's any possibility that Batman chose the betterment of life for all Gotham and more importantly his chance to get out of being Batman? Personally I thought that was one of the only interesting choices Batman made the whole movie--if it was all just a ruse, well, that makes it even lamer.

This.

[Blinken]

I would think that would justify more of the Joker for you Randy.

[RotationSlimWang]

it's lame because there's no point in being batman if the choice of "save the city or save the girl" comes down to saving the girl. why put on the suit? go get married and pop babies out of rachel's clown-car if that's what you're into.

What my lady said. Good work, lady.

[RotationSlimWang]

I would think that would justify more of the Joker for you Randy.

Why would the Joker make either address right if he was going to do that, then? Send him to two fake addresses, have them both die.

[Blinken]

You really don't think there's any possibility that Batman chose the betterment of life for all Gotham and more importantly his chance to get out of being Batman? Personally I thought that was one of the only interesting choices Batman made the whole movie--if it was all just a ruse, well, that makes it even lamer.

BAtman made this choice at the end of the film, he wasn't ready to make the decision yet. Plus if he lost Rachel then he would lose his only reason for wanting a normal life. Both choices would make him Batman for a long time.

[kreutz2112]

I would agree with you, ivy, if they didn't develop the relationship between Bruce Watne and Rachael so well. During the movie Bruce Wayne questions whether he wants to continue being batman or the "invisible hero," he thinks Gotham needs a "hero they can see" (ie Dent). This leads him to have stronger feelings for Rachael because she said that when he takes off his mask for good she will be with him. He didn't want to be batman so he could be with Rachael. This is what motivated him to want to save her. He was counting on the cops to get Dent.

Edit: after reading what had been written while I typed the above. I have decided it can be interpretted either way.

[Blinken]

Why would the Joker make either address right if he was going to do that, then? Send him to two fake addresses, have them both die.

I think it was too fuck with them. Like i said it was to make Dent go off the deep end, and just mess with Batman's head.

[stinkbutt]

The answer is:

Batman unintentionally saved Dent. He meant to save Rachael. The Joker tricked him into saving Dent.

No fuck this answer he saved Dent cause it was the right thing to do for the city

Randy Me and Ivy get it the rest of yall need to wake up

[RotationSlimWang]

Um, I don't see why Rachael would be his only reason for wanting a normal life. Sure that's a big part of the motivation, but I would like to think that he actually values Gotham being safe a little more. Batman goes through love interests like fucking Tic Tacs.

[RotationSlimWang]

I think it was too fuck with them. Like i said it was to make Dent go off the deep end, and just mess with Batman's head.

Dude, if you're seriously claiming that The Joker planned all of that with the thought in his head that Dent would be driven insane from it this is fucking ridiculous.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

it's lame because there's no point in being batman if the choice of "save the city or save the girl" comes down to saving the girl. why put on the suit? go get married and pop babies out of rachel's clown-car if that's what you're into.

If anything, this makes Batman more interesting to me. If he's always going to save the city, that makes him kind of one-dimensional, your average superhero. I mean, the character arc is that he begins the film as a man who really would want to save Rachel, a man who isn't sure he can take the responsibility that comes with being Batman. He ends it having accepted that responsibility in a more complex, adult way than he did in the previous film.

Dude, if you're seriously claiming that The Joker planned all of that with the thought in his head that Dent would be driven insane from it this is fucking ridiculous.

The Joker probably didn't plan for Harvey to become Two-Face or anything, but is it that hard for you to believe that he figured that if he could blow up this guy that Dent and Batman care about, it would fuck with them?

[chairmenmeow47]

that's BS though because i doubt rachel would ever actually stay with bruce if he was just going to be rich trust fund guy with her for the rest of his life. she loved him because deep down he had the batman qualities, which include saving the city over saving yourself. in real life, rachel would have married him, and then cheated on him with guys like dent who were actually out there saving the city. just because she said she'd be with him doesn't really mean it would have happened.

they did do a good job of developing the relationship, which is what makes the decision all more impactful. to know that you have to sacrifice the one you truly love, that is the pain batman has and will always know. it's what makes him batman. and it's what makes him multi-dimentional. he has the feelings, yes, but he is able to overcome them. letting go of attachments and all that...

[RotationSlimWang]

If anything, this makes Batman more interesting to me. If he's always going to save the city, that makes him kind of one-dimensional, your average superhero. I mean, the character arc is that he begins the film as a man who really would want to save Rachel, a man who isn't sure he can take the responsibility that comes with being Batman. He ends it having accepted that responsibility in a more complex, adult way than he did in the previous film.

No no no no no no no no. You don't understand anything about Batman. That is not how he works.

[Blinken]

If he is not trying to turn Dent into a madman, then why did he visit him at the hospital?

[RotationSlimWang]

After the fact, sure. Given what happens it makes sense for Joker to use it to his advantage. Saying that he planned the whole thing just adds another even more preposterous layer onto the extent to which ALL of the Joker's plots are these ridiculously convenient mastermindings.

[PotVsKtl]

It's a tremendously stupid movie plot-wise.

[stinkbutt]

just because she said she'd be with him doesn't really mean it would have happened.


In the note Alfred burned it said she indeed didn't want to be with him and loved Dent or something like that. So even if they would have saved both still a loss for Batman.

[RotationSlimWang]

It's a tremendously stupid move plot-wise.

If it's a lie or if it's true?

It makes way more sense to me that Batman lies about why he saved Dent after the fact. THAT'S good conflict. The other way is shite.

[PotVsKtl]

*movie

[chairmenmeow47]

In the note Alfred burned it said she indeed didn't want to be with him and loved Dent or something like that. So even if they would have saved both still a loss for Batman.

exactly. and even then, i think she also said if the day ever came that batman quit she would leave dent, but maybe i'm wrong. who wants to marry a fickle bitch like that anyways?! :p

[kreutz2112]

Randy, why would batman lie to the cops about who he was going to save? Do you think he changed his mind on the way to get rachael? What would he gain from Rachael being dead? What would gotham gain? He did not choose to save Dent.

[thinnerair]

yay. movies!

[Blinken]

After the fact, sure. Given what happens it makes sense for Joker to use it to his advantage. Saying that he planned the whole thing just adds another even more preposterous layer onto the extent to which ALL of the Joker's plots are these ridiculously convenient mastermindings.

The Joker has always had crazy elaborate plots in the comics. I don't think he decided to do this until he kidnapped both of them. then came up with the idea, and it works both ways. If Batman had chosen to save Dent, and instead saved Rachel, he would have fucked her up to. This would have also turned Batman into someone who doesn't really care about Gotham in the eyes of the citizens. The plan had multiple outcomes and I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the Joker planned for one them to be Dent's downfall.

[RotationSlimWang]

Randy, why would batman lie to the cops about who he was going to save? Do you think he changed his mind on the way to get rachael? What would he gain from Rachael being dead? What would gotham gain? He did not choose to save Dent.

What would Gotham gain from Dent being alive rather than Rachel? Seriously? What would Batman gain? Seriously? Did you watch the fucking movie?

[RotationSlimWang]

And Blink, there's a difference between being elaborate and convoluted.

[kreutz2112]

What would Gotham gain from Dent being alive rather than Rachel? Seriously? What would Batman gain? Seriously? Did you watch the fucking movie?

You are saying he chose to save Dent, which may or may not be true, I am asking: why would he lie to the cops about who he was going to save?

He said he was going to save Rachael, but according to you, all along he wanted to save Dent. SO, what was his motivation in lying to the cops about who he was going to save?

[thinnerair]

a history of Batman;

HAtJG2M-tCU

[stinkbutt]

He changed his mind on the way?

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

So he changed his mind on the way, and had time to inform a cadre of police officers, and then both of them had time to change directions or whatever and head to different locations, before the bombs went off? It's a volatile situation, it would be ridiculous to switch the plan up midway.

[kreutz2112]

He changed his mind on the way?

If that's the case, that is more pathetic than wanting to save Rachael.

[stinkbutt]

Why is that?

[Blinken]

Because then Rachel died and Dent got half his face burnt off because Batman is indecisive

[RotationSlimWang]

You are saying he chose to save Dent, which may or may not be true, I am asking: why would he lie to the cops about who he was going to save?

He said he was going to save Rachael, but according to you, all along he wanted to save Dent. SO, what was his motivation in lying to the cops about who he was going to save?

I don't recall him specifically saying that to the cops on the way to saving them. If I'm wrong I'll fess up but that didn't stick out in my memory. Someone come back to this thread with the exact sequence of events tonight, please.

[stinkbutt]

Or because his initial reaction was to save Rachel then he decided he needed to do what was best for him and the rest of the city.

[Blinken]

I don't recall him specifically saying that to the cops on the way to saving them. If I'm wrong I'll fess up but that didn't stick out in my memory. Someone come back to this thread with the exact sequence of events tonight, please.

I am seeing it again tomarrow, but I remember him talking to Joker and the Joker said Rachel is somewhere, Dent is somewhere else. You can only save one who will it be? Then Batman tells Gordon "I am going after Rachel you go save Dent." Cut to Dent and Rachel in the wharehouses talking to each other. Then Batman rushes in and is a little surprised to see Dent there.

This isn't that fucking complicated

[RotationSlimWang]

I wanna see that clip and the clip where he says he got the wrong addresses.

[Blinken]

He never says he got the wrong address, it is just implied by Dent being there.

[RotationSlimWang]

Oh well then fuck that. He never even mentions it? Then I absolutely disavow your contention.

[stinkbutt]

Dent was surprised to see Batman and said you weren't suppose to save me even Rachel was crying saying she knew he was coming for Dent cause he was more important.

I'm seeing this again tonight I'll bring a pad and paper so I can get this right

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

Oh well then fuck that. He never even mentions it? Then I absolutely disavow your contention.

How do you explain it then? You really think Batman changed his mind midway?

[RotationSlimWang]

How do you explain it then? You really think Batman changed his mind midway?

There are a couple different reasons. One would be that, yes, and it's really not beyond the realm of possibility that they had the main character have a sudden and difficult change of heart at a crucial juncture. Why would they have him change his mind? I dunno... maybe cause it would surprise the audience?

[Blinken]

That is more redicoulus than anything I have said.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to me that Nolan and co. would spring a random surprise on us that would be more confusing than anything (as evidenced by the very existence of this argument). What does make sense is that The Joker, being, you know, The Joker, would deceive Batman in this nature as part of his attempt to destroy him.

[RotationSlimWang]

Yeah, I know, gee, why would a director try to surprise the audience? Why wouldn't Batman just do exactly what we'd naturally expect him to do? Cause that's fucking exciting.

[RotationSlimWang]

Come on, guys, this is a fucking OLD superhero dilemma. See: Spiderman and Gwen Stacy.

[Blinken]

It is a standrad super hero problem you are right. But he clearly says that he is going to save Rachel and then runs off to save her. But Dent is at the location Batman goes to. Therefore he was either given the wrong address, is stupid and got them mixed up, or he is an indecisive bastard that caused Rachel to die and Dent to lose half his face. Take your pick.

[RotationSlimWang]

If that's the truth, that is fucking horseshit. And I don't think you understand what indecisive means. It's not changing your mind--it's when you're not able to make a decision at all. He made one.

[Blinken]

Me, Rage, Kreutz and NMH all heard him say the same thing, only you and stinkbutt think otherwise. Maybe indecisive was the wrong word but you understand my point.

[RotationSlimWang]

You're also all morons, so don't think that that's going to make your case for you. But looking around the net this question has been coming up for a lot of people and it looks like the general consensus is on your side. If that's the case then I have dramatically less respect for Nolan now.

[kreutz2112]

I don't recall him specifically saying that to the cops on the way to saving them. If I'm wrong I'll fess up but that didn't stick out in my memory. Someone come back to this thread with the exact sequence of events tonight, please.

I am 100% positive the cops said "who are you going for" and then batman said "Rachael". 100%

[stinkbutt]

He said it I won't deny that but I think he was just emotional and that was his initial reaction then he wised up and did what he knew to be better for him and the rest of the city.

[RotationSlimWang]

Right, but that doesn't speak to why Batman ends up saving Dent. If Joker had switched the addresses I would think it would have been mentioned after the fucking fact. And that I don't remember.

[wmgaretjax]

I'm fairly convinced Randy didn't see the movie...

Here was my interpretation. Batman was given both addresses. When he was leaving Gordon asked who he was going for he said Rachel. Gordon said, we'll get Dent. Turns out they switched the addresses on 'em so Batman accidentally ends up saving Dent. Rachel dies and sends Dent over the edge, this is easy to imagine being planned out by the Joker. Proving to Batman that he can "draw people into his own demented world."

Yes Batman chose the girl, yes this Batman isn't a one-sided holy man, get over it.

And Randy, "the only difference between you and me is one bad day" is way worse (and might I say, "emo") than Ledger's giddy and manipulative fake stories that play on people's attempts at sympathizing or understanding villains. Go and watch the movie again, you missed it entirely. This Joker is exactly what Joker should be, insane as fuck and pulling people off the cliff with him in a brilliant calculated fashion.

[stinkbutt]

even if this isn't what nolan had in mind it's what I'm sticking to cause Batman isn't a pussy he's got priorities

[Blinken]

I didn't think it needed to be mentioned. I thought audiences are smart enough to figure this shit out, but you just proved me wrong.

[kreutz2112]

Yeah, I know, gee, why would a director try to surprise the audience? Why wouldn't Batman just do exactly what we'd naturally expect him to do? Cause that's fucking exciting.

The surprise came when Batman walked into the room full of barrels of oil and you hear Dents voice and not Rachaels. The audience at that point is surprised by the fact that the Joker switched the addresses on batman. I didnt see the switch coming...

[RotationSlimWang]

If they had Batman save the girl they ruined what makes Batman Batman. THat's the fact.

And you're completely wrong in that last paragraph. There's nothing "emo" about the sentiment, I don't see how you fucking think that. You're right, there was absolutely no sympathizing or understanding or relating to The Joker at all. That's not a good thing, dipshit.

[kreutz2112]

He said it I won't deny that but I think he was just emotional and that was his initial reaction then he wised up and did what he knew to be better for him and the rest of the city.

If THAT is the case I have lost all respect for Nolan.

[Blinken]

Batman is human, and Rachel means alot to him, he choose to save once over taking out the Joker in the apartment earlier in the movie.

[RotationSlimWang]

Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

[Blinken]

If THAT is the case I have lost all respect for Nolan.

Exactly

[Blinken]

Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

I am not saying it is more Noble at all.

[kreutz2112]

Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

there is no opinion here. it's interpretation and you interpreted wrong.

[stinkbutt]

If they had Batman save the girl they ruined what makes Batman Batman. THat's the fact.

This says it all right here

[wmgaretjax]

You're right, there was absolutely no sympathizing or understanding or relating to The Joker at all. That's not a good thing, dipshit.

Of course there was, but The Joker (in the movie) is capable of playing on your sympathies, whether they are based in reality or not, your sympathies don't matter beyond his ability to use them against you. His madness is completely relatable, and that was clear by the giddy joy that everyone in the audience experienced with the magic trick that you clearly fell asleep during. Everyone I went with was sucked into his world and didn't want to leave.

[kreutz2112]

This says it all right here

That says nothing. That's a cop out statement, Randy just can't stand being wrong.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

If they had Batman save the girl they ruined what makes Batman Batman. THat's the fact.

There's a reason the last film was called Batman Begins. What we're seeing is his transformation into that character, into the Batman who wouldn't save the girl. The films would be much less interesting if Batman was a righteous, unconflicted protector the whole way.


Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

Nobody's saying that as far as I can see. I'm certainly not saying that.

[wmgaretjax]

Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

Batman isn't a perfect moral person. It wasn't more important and noble, and the Joker was able to predict his fault and exploit it. Batman fucked up.

[Blinken]

There's a reason the last film was called Batman Begins. What we're seeing is his transformation into that character, into the Batman who wouldn't save the girl. The films would be much less interesting if Batman was a righteous, unconflicted protector the whole way.

Very true, he isn't completley Batman yet he is still growing into the persona of Batman. You can think of this of the incident that makes him never want to save the girl over the city again.

[RotationSlimWang]

Of course there was, but The Joker (in the movie) is capable of playing on your sympathies, whether they are based in reality or not, your sympathies don't matter beyond his ability to use them against you. His madness is completely relatable, and that was clear by the giddy joy that everyone in the audience experienced with the magic trick that you clearly fell asleep during. Everyone I went with was sucked into his world and didn't want to leave.

You saw the new Batman movie on opening weekend and your argument is that people liked it? Hell of a surprise. And if the entire Joker element of his persona is most prevalent in the case of the magic trick, well, isn't that kind fucked seeing as that's one second of the fucking movie?

There's a reason the last film was called Batman Begins. What we're seeing is his transformation into that character, into the Batman who wouldn't save the girl. The films would be much less interesting if Batman was a righteous, unconflicted protector the whole way.

Oh my god, you dumb fuck--Batman IS CONFLICTED BECAUSE HE'S RIGHTEOUS. You don't think it's conflicting to know that the right thing to do for the city he's sworn to protect is to protect Dent and let the woman he loves die?

What you're all basically talking about is that you think Batman made a Bruce Wayne decision instead of a Batman decision. And if that's the truth then that ruins why Batman is fucking cool. Bruce Wayne's little love trysts are not supposed to outweigh his solemn duty to protect lives.

[wmgaretjax]

I seriously don't understand why some of you want such a neatly packaged one to one moral story. The reason these two films are some of the first Batman iterations (outside of The Dark Knight Returns by Miller) that I've really enjoyed are because it doesn't fall into the ridiculous caveats most superhero tales are subject to.

[stinkbutt]

There's a reason the last film was called Batman Begins. What we're seeing is his transformation into that character, into the Batman who wouldn't save the girl. The films would be much less interesting if Batman was a righteous, unconflicted protector the whole way.

No in this one change of mind was his transformation and why he took the blame at the end cause he needs to do whatever it takes for the greater good even if it meant sacrificing everything he held dear

[wmgaretjax]

You saw the new Batman movie on opening weekend and your argument is that people liked it? Hell of a surprise. And if the entire Joker element of his persona is most prevalent in the case of the magic trick, well, isn't that kind fucked seeing as that's one second of the fucking movie?

That isn't my argument at all, you claimed that he was unrelatable, and it was clear to me that the opposite was true. I have no problem thinking that some films fail when certain moments are absent... Maybe that's because I pay attention when I go and watch films.

[stinkbutt]

I seriously don't understand why some of you want such a neatly packaged one to one moral story. The reason these two films are some of the first Batman iterations (outside of The Dark Knight Returns by Miller) that I've really enjoyed are because it doesn't fall into the ridiculous caveats most superhero tales are subject to.

The conflict is still and always there but if Batman chooses the girl he's not Batman anymore and if Nolan wanted to do a Spider-Man movie the 4th still needs a director

[Blinken]

You saw the new Batman movie on opening weekend and your argument is that people liked it? Hell of a surprise. And if the entire Joker element of his persona is most prevalent in the case of the magic trick, well, isn't that kind fucked seeing as that's one second of the fucking movie?



Oh my god, you dumb fuck--Batman IS CONFLICTED BECAUSE HE'S RIGHTEOUS. You don't think it's conflicting to know that the right thing to do for the city he's sworn to protect is to protect Dent and let the woman he loves die?

What you're all basically talking about is that you think Batman made a Bruce Wayne decision instead of a Batman decision. And if that's the truth then that ruins why Batman is fucking cool. Bruce Wayne's little love trysts are not supposed to outweigh his solemn duty to protect lives.

Rachel Dawes is more than just some Bruce Wayne love tryst. She is the only real connection to the real him, other than Alfred, before his parents died. She represents his youth and innocence in a way no other woman will ever represent for Bruce Wayne. She is the reason he wants to stop being Batman, and turn over the city to Harvey. Without here Bruce Wayne has nothing of substance

[stinkbutt]

Which is why Batman is so badass for letting her die

[wmgaretjax]

if Batman chooses the girl he's not Batman anymore

WHY? Batman makes emotional and impulsive mistakes in some of the best comics (Year One, The Dark Knight Returns...), why is it so egregious if a woman is involved?

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

What you're all basically talking about is that you think Batman made a Bruce Wayne decision instead of a Batman decision. And if that's the truth then that ruins why Batman is fucking cool. Bruce Wayne's little love trysts are not supposed to outweigh his solemn duty to protect lives.

They're not supposed to, but that's the fucking point. Everybody makes mistakes, and even if he is Batman, it would be dishonest for a movie with this much interest in issues of human morality to let Batman off the hook just because he's fucking Batman. I'm sorry if the Dark Knight isn't as cool to you anymore, but that's life. Go watch Iron Man or something.

[unitedwestand]

not to take the convo off super hero movies, but I'm reading the novel The Road right now and it's amazing. Apparently their making a movie about it coming out in December this year with Viggo Morrison, Guy Pearce & Charlize Theron.
The book takes place in a burnt out American wasteland, not long after a nuclear winter has settled in. A father and his son, traveling with only the clothes they are wearing, a pistol for protection, and a cart of scavenged food, slowly make their way down a deserted road in an attempt to get to the coast. They don't know what they'll find there, but at this point, they've got nothing else but each other and the hope that they'll find something at the end that is keeping them alive. There's also cannibals and bandits, and great forest fires. The water is black as well as the sky, and ash falls constantly. It's an awesome read so far, hopefully the movie will be just as good!

[unitedwestand]

Viggo Mortenson*

[RotationSlimWang]

They're not supposed to, but that's the fucking point. Everybody makes mistakes, and even if he is Batman, it would be dishonest for a movie with this much interest in issues of human morality to let Batman off the hook just because he's fucking Batman. I'm sorry if the Dark Knight isn't as cool to you anymore, but that's life. Go watch Iron Man or something.

Jesus Christ, I can't believe what dorks you are. By making it so that he was given the wrong address they ARE letting him off the hook.

[Yablonowitz]

Batman did indeed announce his intentions to get Rachel, at which point I protested internally, "NO! You have to save the city." Then when he arrived to get Dent, I simply assumed he changed his mind en route.

That the Joker intentionally changed the addresses is definitely a Jokerlike move if he was fully aware of how strongly both Batman and Dent felt about Rachel - he knew Rachel's death would ruin Dent and Dent's incorruptibility was the greatest threat to the criminals in Gotham. It would also ruin Batman's reputation, already shaky as it was.

However, the problem with this would be that the Joker would have to know that Batman would choose his love interest over the good of the city and the Joker had no reason to suspect Batman had such strong feelings for Rachel or be swayed to act against the best interest of the city.

And the lack of surprise or any pointed reference to a switch makes me think Batman had in fact changed his mind. Of course, it could have been intentionally ambiguous.

[RotationSlimWang]

+100 Yabs. Thank god some other people have their heads out of their asses.

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

Well, the Joker's dialogue during the interrogation suggests that yes, he did know there was something between Batman and Rachel. I'd guess it was Batman's reaction to his use of her as a hostage that tipped him off. *shrug*

[RotationSlimWang]

Also, The Joker had promised to kill Dent. He was the last of the three names Joker had to get to. So if he gave Batman the wrong addresses he would have been trying to save Dent's life. It just doesn't make any sense to me know how the Joker is supposed to operate. But none of the shit Joker did in this movie was Joker-like.

[mountmccabe]

However, the problem with this would be that the Joker would have to know that Batman would choose his love interest over the good of the city and the Joker had no reason to suspect Batman had such strong feelings for Rachel or be swayed to act against the best interest of the city.

Wrong. In the interrogation room Joker said that he was surprised by the way Batman jumped out of the building after Rachel. I think Joker even asked if Harvey knew about these feelings.


EDIT: Neutral Milk Hotel beat me to it.

[mountmccabe]

I'm fairly convinced Randy didn't see the movie...

Me too.


And the lack of surprise or any pointed reference to a switch makes me think Batman had in fact changed his mind.

That doesn't make any sense. He was asked who he was going after; he growled "Rachel" and jumped on his batpod. I think the fact that they didn't show him changing his mind, turning around and alerting Gordon of this fact makes it entirely clear that he didn't.

I mean, seriously, if this is supposed to be a big character changing moment where he moves from his anger and feelings for Rachel to choosing what he thinks is best for Gotham why not show that, at least a little? Why make us figure out that he's changed when Batman arrives and finds Dent there?

[RotationSlimWang]

Wrong. In the interrogation room Joker said that he was surprised by the way Batman jumped out of the building after Rachel. I think Joker even asked if Harvey knew about these feelings.


EDIT: Neutral Milk Hotel beat me to it.

Well the Joker has to know that Batman has feelings for her otherwise there's no point in putting Batman to the decision of Dent vs. Rachel.

[Blinken]

It goes back to the Apartment scene. When Batman choose to let the Joker go free, and possibly kill the other people in the room, to save Rachel the joker knew something was up. That there was some connection between the two.

It was a lose-lose game he was playing with Batman. If he had decided to save Dent, then Dent would have died. This would havemade Batman hated throughout Gotham and by Rachel. Instead he made Dent go crazy because Rachel died, so Dent basically died anyways.

[RotationSlimWang]

Did The Joker really have to reuse the basic principle of "choose who must die" twice? Once with Rachel and Dent, and then AGAIN with the tankers? I realize he's trying to do two different things but isn't it just a little repetitive? Shouldn't the joker be a bit more creative?

Sorry, but none of these things are nearly as cool or malicious as staging a parade to drop 20 million in cash on the city and then gassing everyone.

[mountmccabe]

Joker made threats against the bridges and tunnels to get the ferries that he booby trapped out into the water.

Joker made threats against all the hospitals to get at Dent. Sure, he actually blew a hospital up too but that doesn't obscure what his main goal was.

Joker allowed himself to be captured and taken to jail so he could get to Lau.

This is what this Joker did, he created distractions and diversions and screwed with expectations. He was introducing the unexpected and chaos into people's lives because he feels that is more fair than anything else.

Telling Batman the wrong addresses was part of that chaos. No, he did not know exactly what would happen but that wasn't how he operated. He did, however, know that Batman would choose to go after Rachel and that her death and the way it happened would tear at both Batman and Dent.

I am not suggesting Joker specifically planned to have Harvey's face half-burnt off but I am sure he was delighted to see how even his plans flare up.

[RotationSlimWang]

Right, I'm just saying it was a little bit omnipotent of The Joker. The whole movie he seemed fucking infallible. He had these ridiculously bulletproof plots where he could get anywhere and do anything. It just blew the realistic fear for me a little, although it was kinda cool. But how does someone who kills the people who work for him so frequently maintain such a crack elite force of demolitions experts and other highly trained mass murderers? Sorry, but, fuck.

They turned the Joker into an allegory about terrorism, and I just don't appreciate it. I really, really wish that these people would do the comic books they're translating more justice. It's not even a high-brow art form, and every one of them except for Sin City has proven that they can't seem to replicate the storylines and gravitas of what's supposed to be juvenile pulp.

[wmgaretjax]

Also, The Joker had promised to kill Dent.

And he did.

This movie really doesn't warrant this much talk, it seems there are only a few of you struggling with the plot. Go and see it again, so we can get back to the order of things.

I saw Marc Caro's debut solo-directed feature "Dante 01." Unfortunately my French is a little rusty and there were no English subtitles. But from my frantic attempts to understand (there was little enough dialogue so I think I did OK) it was a strangely paced film. Kind of slow in ways I didn't expect, but definitely visually interesting and cut from original cloth. I'm excited to see it again with some inguistic assistance.

[Yablonowitz]

Actually, I think Pot's general assessment is right - the plot was fucked up. The other part that made zero sense to me was Dent choosing not to kill the Joker. First of all, it's completely implausible that he would have accepted the Joker's word that he had nothing to do with it because he was the only one capable of such a malicious, chaotic scenario. I could see Dent deciding to carry on his spree of revenge to all the enablers but letting the Joker go simply doesn't stand up.

And I think this choice plot line discussion is another example of fucked up storytelling. With the stakes as high as it was for the town that Dent be saved, there is no way that the Joker could have known for sure that Batman would save Rachel first.


And John, I'd have to say that on either scenario, the movie drops the ball. If it's that Batman chooses mid-trip to change his destination then, as you say, it's confusing that they wouldn't have made that clear by showing Batman changing his mind. But, if the Joker did intentionally switch the addresses, there is no indication of that through Batman's reaction or from any of the other characters directly involved that they were surprised.

So...bottom line in my mind - at least two key parts of the plot were poorly handled and not thought through.

I still liked it though.

[RotationSlimWang]

There's not just "a few" of us "struggling," Jared. Half the people in the fucking thread see that there are serious failures in this plot. I'll stack the ones on my side against the ones on yours any day. Maybe you should go watch it again, or, you know, start actually caring about plot in your movies. But then again you never did, so... I guess whatever.

[Blinken]

A few = 3 = Randy, Yablo, and Stinkbutt

[Mr. Dylanja]

Make it 4.

I thought it was thoroughly entertaining but overall too many flaws to be considered a 5 star/outstanding film.

I really think Ironman gives it a run for its money for best summer movie, I'd like to watch them both again...

[Blinken]

Fine I retract my statement, because i forgot Ivy and Pot as well.

[Yablonowitz]

A few = 3 = Randy, Yablo, and Stinkbutt

For the record, I'm not convinced of either scenario. And I blame the plot writing for this confusion.

[Blinken]

Fine I retract my statement because i forgot abot Pot and Ivy.

[Yablonowitz]

Ok brb when we get back to the order of things...

[Blinken]

For the record, I'm not convinced of either scenario. And I blame the plot writing for this confusion.

I guess I see your confusion, but to me it is pretty obvious that the Joker lied to Batman. It just makes so much more sense then Batman changing his mind. I would think that if Batman changed his mind they would have shown it because it would be a big character turning point. While the Joker fucking over Batman doesn't need to be explained because we see it happen.

[Yablonowitz]

It goes back to the Apartment scene. When Batman choose to let the Joker go free, and possibly kill the other people in the room, to save Rachel the joker knew something was up. That there was some connection between the two.


A superhero would do that regardless of the innocent civilian falling to their death.

[RotationSlimWang]

So lets see, the official tally is:

THE LOSER SIDE: Blinken, wmgaretx, NMH, Rage, Kreutz, McCabe?

OUR SIDE: Me, Ivy, Yabs, Pot, Stinkbutt, Dylanja

Um... yeah, I'll take mine.

[luckyface]

I was also under the impression that Batman just had a change of heart and went to save Dent. I just assumed that it was made off camera.

[wmgaretjax]

Half the people in the fucking thread see that there are serious failures in this plot.

I agree there are serious issues in the plot (sonar bull-shit and the Dent's half of his encounter with Joker at the end), they just don't happen to be the same as yours.

I don't know why I'm even having this discussion, I wouldn't even call this film great. I just enjoyed a superhero movie for the first time in my life.

[RotationSlimWang]

I don't know why I'm even having this discussion, I wouldn't even call this film great. I just enjoyed a superhero movie for the first time in my life.

Because you can't resist an opportunity to be wrong?


=)

[menikmati]

Some of you are looking way too deep into it. And I don't understand how some of you can argue Batman changed his mind and rescued Harvey on purpose. It was spelled out for us for crying out loud....he found out about Rachel being captured, went ape shit, then the Joker gave him the addresses, and Batman chose to go rescue Rachel (not knowing the Joker was fucking with him and gave him the wrong address because a) he knew batman would choose Rachel based on that dinner party thing earlier, and b) he wanted to torment and piss of Dent even more). Simple as that.

[RotationSlimWang]

And yet never once made reference to by any of the cops after the fact. Now actually, wait a minute, wasn't Gordon rushing to the building Rachel was in when it blew up?

[menikmati]

I'm sure Gordon assumed that was where Dent was.

[RotationSlimWang]

Either way it was ridiculously poorly handled by the filmmakers in communicating things properly (FUCKING WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU NOT HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DIALOGUE TO BOOKEND THAT EVENT?) and when it comes right down to it, that's the most insultingly pussy choice they could have made. How weak.

[menikmati]

Only thing that pissed me off was how it just kinda jumped to the joker scene where he goes "btw, Dent and Rachel are captured". Just seemed like a lazy approach to set up the next plot points and scenes. Just outta the blue with no explanation or scenes, we find out he captured both Dent and Rachel...that was pretty weak in my eyes.

[RotationSlimWang]

It just seemed kinda repetitive how Joker was always five, six fucking steps ahead of everything. It's like in the Ocean's Eleven group of movies where I'm just like, "there's nothing genuinely dramatic about a situation where you know there's just going to keep being an implausible reveal that shows that they PLANNED for all this to happen."

[Somewhat Damaged]

Excuse me, when did you all become a bunch of loser pussies that think it's more important and noble to save some cunt than the person who could relieve him of the responsibility of protecting an entire city?

Sorry I'm late to the discussion but I think it was more of a sacrifice on Batman's part to try and save Rachel than Dent because if he had succeeded in rescuing her but Dent died in the process, he would have to remain Batman due to Dent no longer being around. Though Rachel would be alive, she wouldn't be with Bruce Wayne because she noted as such earlier in the film (and I think Batman Begins, IIRC) as long as he remained Batman. So he wouldn't be screwing over the city necessarily because he would still be in place to fight crime, and in fact his job would be even more difficult due to the loss of Harvey Dent. His shot at a normal life is fucked either way, and by going after Rachel, he's essentially choosing to remain Batman.

[boarderwoozel3]

Some of you are looking way too deep into it. And I don't understand how some of you can argue Batman changed his mind and rescued Harvey on purpose. It was spelled out for us for crying out loud....he found out about Rachel being captured, went ape shit, then the Joker gave him the addresses, and Batman chose to go rescue Rachel (not knowing the Joker was fucking with him and gave him the wrong address because a) he knew batman would choose Rachel based on that dinner party thing earlier, and b) he wanted to torment and piss of Dent even more). Simple as that.

I concur. And as a whole the film was too cheesy, even for a Batman flick. The Joker was well done (duh) but everyone else fucking blew, hard. I felt hosed out of $10.75 and over two hours of my time.

And fuck Batman's stupid low voice too. I don't care if he lowered it to conceal his identity, it was painfully lame. And the dumb-shit suit they had him in the whole time made him seem awkward and mechanical so fuck that too. Christian Bale = worst Batman ever!!!!

[wmgaretjax]

Because you can't resist an opportunity to be wrong?


=)

tee-hee.

I read the Tarantino script, couldn't resist. I can't fucking wait.

[rage patton]

Did some of you miss the scene where The Joker is talking to Dent in the hospital? The Joker doesn't have plans... he just does things then goes along with them. This may give the impression that he is "five, six fucking steps ahead" all the time, but that is not the case. The Joker does something, looks at what happends, and does something else. That is how he works.

[RotationSlimWang]

Excuse me? Did you forget about the ending? What, so he called in all those bomb threats, rigged explosives on both ships, planted detonators, radios, etc all spontaneously?

You cunts don't know anything about these characters it seems. I wish you would shut up about it.

[woogie846]

I watched Citizen Kane a couple of hours ago.

[Mr.Nipples]

hahahahahttp://www.ramutboxo.com/chicken/mask.jpg

[Mr. Dylanja]

So lets see, the official tally is:

THE LOSER SIDE: Blinken, wmgaretx, NMH, Rage, Kreutz, McCabe?

OUR SIDE: Me, Ivy, Yabs, Pot, Stinkbutt, Dylanja

Um... yeah, I'll take mine.




There's only one way to solve this....



TUG-O-WAR!!

[bmack86]

When I watched the movie and they showed that Dent's coin has heads on both sides, a fat redneck sitting behind me turned to his wife and said "They's both heads honey. He knows what it's gonna be."

Reading the last five pages, I felt like most people were that guy.

[rage patton]

So which side are you on Bryan?

[bmack86]

He thought he was going to save Rachel. He would not have had time to change his mind on the drive over. He would have also had to coordinate that with the cops and, as we see, he made it just in time as it was. The Joker didn't really know the outcome, but he figured either way would be a kick, is my interpretation. On one hand, if he decided to go save Dent, when he showed up and found Rachel, oops, there goes the hope for the city and now he has that on his head. On the other hand, if he goes to save Rachel, then there's Dent and the person he obviously cares for (and who Dent cares for as well) is dead. Either way, the Joker has a laugh.

[stinkbutt]

Did some of you miss the scene where The Joker is talking to Dent in the hospital? The Joker doesn't have plans... he just does things then goes along with them. This may give the impression that he is "five, six fucking steps ahead" all the time, but that is not the case. The Joker does something, looks at what happends, and does something else. That is how he works.

You're fucking nuts: The first robbery, When he kills the drug dealer, Lets himself get arrested, and as Randy mentioned the end, I think there's even some other minor things I'm forgetting.

If you all think we're crazy or as someone as said didn't even watch the movie I think this is a good example that yall must have been at Mama Mia

[schoolofruckus]

I cannot believe there have been five fucking pages trying to dissect which character Batman was attempting to save. I know the choice is important to his portrayal; I do not know why the movie is important enough to inspire this much "debate".

Why aren't we fighting this much over Wall*E, for Christ's sake?

[downingthief]

Wait...there's a Batman movie out?

[schoolofruckus]

Actually, I think Pot's general assessment is right - the plot was fucked up. The other part that made zero sense to me was Dent choosing not to kill the Joker. First of all, it's completely implausible that he would have accepted the Joker's word that he had nothing to do with it because he was the only one capable of such a malicious, chaotic scenario. I could see Dent deciding to carry on his spree of revenge to all the enablers but letting the Joker go simply doesn't stand up.

And I think this choice plot line discussion is another example of fucked up storytelling. With the stakes as high as it was for the town that Dent be saved, there is no way that the Joker could have known for sure that Batman would save Rachel first.


And John, I'd have to say that on either scenario, the movie drops the ball. If it's that Batman chooses mid-trip to change his destination then, as you say, it's confusing that they wouldn't have made that clear by showing Batman changing his mind. But, if the Joker did intentionally switch the addresses, there is no indication of that through Batman's reaction or from any of the other characters directly involved that they were surprised.

So...bottom line in my mind - at least two key parts of the plot were poorly handled and not thought through.

I still liked it though.

I thought Batman had an enraged, frustrated reaction when he got to the warehouse and found Dent instead of Rachel.

Bottom line is, this thread has been whipped into a frothing frenzy based on the interpretations of a guy who admittedly A. went into the movie with a vendetta, and B. missed at least one of the movie's most jarring scenes, as well as sleeping through the last 10 minutes. Let's put some thought into THAT before we decide to go apeshit.

[bmack86]

and, C. is Randy, who likes to stir the shit.

[bmack86]

I found two-lane blacktop in Chicago for a measly 15 bucks. The Criterion version. Should I watch that, Stalker or 8 1/2 right now?

[whynotsmile99]

8 1/2 is terrific

[wmgaretjax]

I found two-lane blacktop in Chicago for a measly 15 bucks. The Criterion version. Should I watch that, Stalker or 8 1/2 right now?

Stalker, maintain the Tarkovsky buzz.

[anti-square]

Why aren't we fighting this much over Wall*E, for Christ's sake?

cuz there's no debate to the awesomeness.

[thinnerair]

In Non-Batman related news:

I watched Mr. Brooks last night, which featured Kevin Costner, Demi Moore and Dane Cook. I don't know why I rented, but I did. It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be and, in fact, got creepier and darker than I thought it would get. Here's the plot:

After Mr. Brooks (Costner) receives a "Man of the Year" award, we find out he is a serial killer haunted by the voice of his alter ego inside his head. Divided between a cold and rational Brooks and an emotional and intuitive Marshall (Hurt), he decides to satisfy Marshall by killing his last victims and then "retiring" to a simple family life. But something goes wrong and he cannot leave his life of crime. Meanwhile, things start to go wrong with his perfect family life, and a rough cop specialized on serial killers (Moore) begins to chase him. Mr. Brooks soon finds out that the only way to put an end to his life of crime is to kill again, and then some more. Or die in the process. Kevin Costner is brilliant in his depiction of an emotionless man, showing a different view of himself according to the situation he's in: a passionate husband, a caring father, a cold personality, or a perverted killer - no one could have pulled so many different expressions and still come out as emotionless as he did.


Has anyone seen this?

[mountmccabe]

Did some of you miss the scene where The Joker is talking to Dent in the hospital? The Joker doesn't have plans... he just does things then goes along with them. This may give the impression that he is "five, six fucking steps ahead" all the time, but that is not the case. The Joker does something, looks at what happends, and does something else. That is how he works.

Joker is also a liar.


I thought Batman had an enraged, frustrated reaction when he got to the warehouse and found Dent instead of Rachel.

I agree. Though I will also agree with Yabs, et al that it easily could have been more clear. But I don't think it needed to be.


I cannot believe there have been five fucking pages trying to dissect which character Batman was attempting to save. I know the choice is important to his portrayal; I do not know why the movie is important enough to inspire this much "debate".

Why aren't we fighting this much over Wall*E, for Christ's sake?

More people have seen TDK than have seen Wall*E. And TDK has gotten some critical acclaim but is still just a action/adventure/superhero/comic book movie and retains many of the flaws of these genres.

Also I still do wanna see Wall*E. Is there independent source material that I can get obsessed with first so as to blind me to what happens during the movie? Otherwise I'ma gonna have to sleep through part of it to come back with ridiculous opinions to inspire fighting.

[Hopeless Semantic]

Hey. I want to say thanks for all the recommendations. I'm pretty much a neophyte when it comes to movies, but I've written down a number of titles and will soon catch them.

[allyjoy]

And TDK has gotten some critical acclaim but is still just a action/adventure/superhero/comic book movie and retains many of the flaws of these genres.

It's really hard to do a comic book movie well. Especially one with such a devoted following. As far as translating it from comic to film, there are no flaws with this film (well except for CB's growl talk). Not only have they made an excellent action film, but they stayed pretty true to the idea of the comic. They didn't go camp. They didn't wave it off as a shoot-em-up, lots of explosions. They took the time and effort to make what imo is the best of its genre.

[chairmenmeow47]

haven't all the batman's in the past like 20 years had the "growl talk"? i remember thinking keaton's "growl talk" was lame when i heard it then. i guess i've just become used to it.

[wmgaretjax]

cuz there's no debate to the awesomeness.

there is as far as the second half of the movie goes... It's good, but it falls flat compared to the first half.

[allyjoy]

keaton's never annoyed me the way bale's does... just a personal thing. I don't hold it against the film.

[rage patton]

I understand the growl to disguise his voice... but why does he use the growl when he talks to people who knows he is Batman? Racheal and Lucious for example. I am guessing it is to signify that when he puts on the Batsuit, he becomes a different person, but it still seems unneccessary.

[Down Rodeo]

I watched Kurosawa's Ikiru the other night, and I was blown away. The movie follows a man who learns he's dying of stomach cancer, and he realizes he's basically wasted his entire life (reminiscent of Bergman's Wild Strawberries). The first half of the movie portrays this man coming to terms with his imminent death and deciding to devote his last days to a single act of public service, and the second half rather brilliantly skips ahead to his funeral where his coworkers discuss (at first dismissively) and then become inspired by this man's final act. This film clearly pulls at the heartstrings, but never in a sappy way. I think this could be the best of Kurosawa's films I've seen yet (in addition to Seven Samurai, Rashomon and Ran).

[luckyface]

Wow, Transformers was really, really, really bad. Someone who swore by it gave it to me to watch. 7 months later, I finally did. Megan Fox is pretty amazing, but there is not one redeeming quality other than her in the movie. So f-ing cheesy.

[wmgaretjax]

"Ikiru" is my favorite Kurosawa film.

[whynotsmile99]

Wow, Transformers was really, really, really bad. Someone who swore by it gave it to me to watch. 7 months later, I finally did. Megan Fox is pretty amazing, but there is not one redeeming quality other than her in the movie. So f-ing cheesy.

yea, spot on review. There was one part that was hilariously bad though. I forgot how it went though. I think it was when Bumblebee (the black one) was killed. He said something that had me laughing out loud. Ring a bell at all? I'd love to remember that moment.

[Down Rodeo]

I can certainly see why now. The emotional force in Ikiru is overwhelming and very life-affirming.

[luckyface]

yea, spot on review. There was one part that was hilariously bad though. I forgot how it went though. I think it was when Bumblebee (the black one) was killed. He said something that had me laughing out loud. Ring a bell at all? I'd love to remember that moment.

I think that one was Jazz. I do remember that part, but I unfortunately (fortunately?) don't remember what he said. But it was really awesome how some alien robots are able to speak in United States slang.

[whynotsmile99]

Ikuru is a beautiful movie, probably one of my top Kurosawa's as well, along with Hidden Fortress and Yojimbo.

I typed IKuru into youtube out of curiosity and found this, which has nothing to do with Kurosawa but is special in its own right

_Y5TCTJdRuY

[Blinken]

I understand the growl to disguise his voice... but why does he use the growl when he talks to people who knows he is Batman? Racheal and Lucious for example. I am guessing it is to signify that when he puts on the Batsuit, he becomes a different person, but it still seems unneccessary.

I had the conversation with someone else the other day, I think it is so he doesn't get comfortable speaking as Bruce Wayne in the Batsuit. because he is very comfortable around people like Gordon and could slip up if he isn't careful.

[thinnerair]

and the second half rather brilliantly skips ahead to his funeral where his coworkers discuss (at first dismissively) and then become inspired by this man's final act. This film clearly pulls at the heartstrings, but never in a sappy way.

Remember that movie PAY IT FORWARD?

[bmack86]

I had the conversation with someone else the other day, I think it is so he doesn't get comfortable speaking as Bruce Wayne in the Batsuit. because he is very comfortable around people like Gordon and could slip up if he isn't careful.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have something in the suit in the first movie that automatically altered his voice, hooked at his throat or something? Maybe I'm just making that up.

[thinnerair]

that sounds made up.

[luckyface]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have something in the suit in the first movie that automatically altered his voice, hooked at his throat or something? Maybe I'm just making that up.

Yeah, that is not true. I think he does that a) to disguise his voice and b) use it as a way to intimidate.

[Blinken]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have something in the suit in the first movie that automatically altered his voice, hooked at his throat or something? Maybe I'm just making that up.

I think you are wrong, I just say the first one again a week ago. I did notice a radio that Bale put into the ear on his suit, so maybe that is what you saw.

[schoolofruckus]

cuz there's no debate to the awesomeness.

That's quite true. But it would be nice if people cared enough to agree on its awesomeness. And also, if it had made more in the past three weeks than Batman made in its first three days.

[bmack86]

Well, I haven't seen it since it came out, so it's probably just my fantastically developed imagination running wild

[Neutral Milk Hotel]

I watched Kurosawa's Ikiru the other night, and I was blown away. The movie follows a man who learns he's dying of stomach cancer, and he realizes he's basically wasted his entire life (reminiscent of Bergman's Wild Strawberries). The first half of the movie portrays this man coming to terms with his imminent death and deciding to devote his last days to a single act of public service, and the second half rather brilliantly skips ahead to his funeral where his coworkers discuss (at first dismissively) and then become inspired by this man's final act. This film clearly pulls at the heartstrings, but never in a sappy way. I think this could be the best of Kurosawa's films I've seen yet (in addition to Seven Samurai, Rashomon and Ran).

Takashi Shimura's acting in this is just about the best I've ever seen. No film moves me as much as Ikiru.