EFF MATH!!

[sbessiso]

The worst fucking subject of all time. My absolute enemy since grade school, and the main obstacle between me and a degree. I cannot think of many things I hate more than math. I'm not even in college math and im drowning (along with the rest of the class). I dont care about exponents, fractions/decimals, division, etc. I simply could not care less. It will never ever apply in my life and I wish I didnt have to take it




This isn't meant to piss off the elite, trust me.

[chairmenmeow47]

stupid logic *shakes hook*

[menikmati]

math makes the universe work

[miscorrections]

Math is elegant.

[marooko]

what math are you doing/having trouble with? ive learned to love math, dont fight it, salah.

[TommyboyUNM]

Man up, Sally.

[marooko]

damn tammy, thats fucked up.

[Alchemy]

Math is your friend, Salah.

[vogina]

Math is good. It's easy; follow the steps

[OnlyNonStranger]

Math is math. Just accept it.

[Monklish]

We get it, you're gay.

[amyzzz]

I also hate math, and math hates me bigtime.

[algunz]

That's one of the main reasons for my college choice. Columbia had no math requirement. :thu But we couldn't graduate unless we could swim one lap of the pool. :rolleyes

[WhyTheLongFace]

Math is power, ask sinbad

[PotVsKtl]

We get it, you're gay.

Fuck.

[Monklish]

Gay and dumb.

[PotVsKtl]

That's no way to go through life son.

[hegemon]

lulz

Gay and dumb.

more hahas

I :pulse math

I'm a math wizard.

[Monklish]

Fat, gay and dumb is no way to go through life. I think that might be an improvement on the original.

[SoulDischarge]

You're wrong about that. It's really quite wonderful.

[BlackSwan]

I was hoping to find some humorous, innuendo-ridden, mathimatical word play in this thread... Looks like I'm out of luck.

[marooko]

dont let us stop YOU.

[hegemon]

Say something funny, BlackSwan. You can do it.

[BlackSwan]

I'm not passionate enough about math.

[shakermaker113]

why the fuck are you doing a degree that requires so much of something you detest?

[shakermaker113]

I was hoping to find some humorous, innuendo-ridden, mathimatical word play in this thread... Looks like I'm out of luck.

...


Richard A. Gibbs
The Best of The Journal of Irreproducible Results, 1983

Once upon a time (1/t), pretty little Polly Nomial was strolling across a field of vectors, when she came to the edge of a singularly large matrix. Now Polly was convergent, and her mother had made it an absolute condition that she must never enter such an array without her brackets on. Polly, however, had changed her variables that morning, and, feeling particularly badly behaved, she ignored this condition on the grounds that it was insufficient, and made her way in amongst the complex elements.

Rows and columns enveloped her on all sides. Tangents approached her surface. She became tensor and tensor. Quite suddenly, three branches of a hyperbola touched her at a single point. She oscillated violently, lost all sense of directrix, and went completely divergent. As she reached a turning point, she tripped over a square root which was protruding from the erf, and plunged headlong down a steep gradient. When she was differentiated once more, she found herself, apparently alone, in a non-euclidean space.

She was being watched however. That smooth operator, Curly Pi, was lurking inner product. As his eyes devoured her curvilinear coordinates, a singular expression crossed his face. Was she still convergent, he wondered. He decided to integrate improperly at once.

Hearing a vulgar function behind her, Polly turned round, and saw Curly Pi approaching with his power series extrapolated. She could see at once, by his degenerate conic and his dissipative terms, that he was bent on no good.

"Eureka" she gasped.

"Ho, ho!" he said. "What a symmetric little polynomial you are. I can see that you are absolutely bubbling over with secs".

"Sir", she said, "keep away from me. I haven't got my brackets on.

"Calm yourself my dear" said our suave operator, "your fears are purely imaginary".

"i, i" she thought. "Perhaps he's homogeneous then?".

"What order are you?" the brute demanded.

"Seventeen", replied Polly.

Curly leered. "I suppose you've never been operated on yet?" he said.

"Of course not" Polly cried indignantly. "I'm absolutely convergent".

"Come, cone," said Curly. "Lets off to a decimal place I know, and I'll take you to the limit".

"Never" gasped Polly.

His patience was gone. Coshing her over the coefficient with a log until she was powerless, Curly removed her discontinuities. He stared at her significant places and began to smooth her points of inflexion. Poor Polly. All was lost. She felt his hand bonding to her asymptotic limit. Her convergence would be gone for ever.

There was no mercy, for Curly was a heavyside operator. He integrated by parts. He integrated by partial fractions. The complex beast even went all the way round, and did a contour integration. What an indignity! Curly went on operating until he was completely and absolutely orthogonal.

When Polly got hone that evening, her mother noticed that she had been truncated in several places. But it was too late to differentiate now --- the seeds having been sown. As the months went by, Polly increased monotonically. Finally, she generated a small, but pathological, function, which left surds all over the place, until she was driven to distraction.

The moral of this sad story is this: It you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom.

[TeamCoachellaHellYeah]

if Math was a person I would have killed him years ago...always my worst subject as well...I feel you Salah.

[cloud9]

if Math was a person I would have killed him years ago...always my worst subject as well...I feel you Salah.

sam thin g was thinekding of comiting suicide after 1 of my problm

[kitt kat]

I never enjoyed math. It wasn't fun for me.

[Monklish]

People that have trouble with math are typically illogical jerkwads.

[dinosaurateme]

Don't let Frankie aka samiksha do your homework. you'll fail, like i did.

[leo01g]

math didnt really get hard till i had to learn lagrange multipliers THOSE WERE TOUGH! I remember my asshole professor gave us this really hard question on a midterm and then just said "Well I kinda knew no one was going to get it right i just wanted to see how you guys would approach a problem like this"

[Aurgasm]

i speak 5 languages and math isn't one of them.. beyond Calc 1 that is.

[Young blood]

Don't let Frankie aka samiksha do your homework. you'll fail, like i did.

hahahahaha sucker.

[cansei de ser sexme]

math is still easy for me.

[dorkfish]

I almost moved to Russia to pursue my love of mathematics.

[marooko]

dont you mean gymnastics, or poor nuclear technology?

[JSam67]

I like music far too much not to enjoy math.

[betao]

The worst fucking subject of all time. My absolute enemy since grade school, and the main obstacle between me and a degree. I cannot think of many things I hate more than math. I'm not even in college math and im drowning (along with the rest of the class). I dont care about exponents, fractions/decimals, division, etc. I simply could not care less. It will never ever apply in my life and I wish I didnt have to take it




This isn't meant to piss off the elite, trust me.

I always used to believe that, regardless of it's difficulty. I've always asked myself "why am I learning this, i'll never do this after school", but then I finally realized why exactly you learn it.

Learning advanced math (math beyond early years of high school imho) isn't supposed to really teach you directly what it does. For instance, you're right; you'll probably never have to find the derivative of a complex function in real life (key word being probably). But that isn't what you're supposed to get out of it. I think it's supposed to indirectly teach you problem solving skills that you can apply elsewhere. Those tough classes and painful formulas all teach you how to solve complex problems. That is what you're supposed to get out of it, methinks.

I may be wrong, but it's just my take on it. I'm not a big fan of math, but can sorta understand why we learn it.

[MeowMixer]

Math is sucks. Grammers where its at!

[dorkfish]

dont you mean gymnastics, or poor nuclear technology?
nah, math. the state university in st peterburg would've let me dick around with probability theory and theoretical cybernetics and i would have written a crowd pleasing book about number theory.

instead I moved to San Francisco.

[menikmati]

I enjoy math rock.

[Astrid]

Math is sucks. Grammers where its at!

for a minute i didnt realize you were joking.

i hope you are joking...

[indietron]

I always used to believe that, regardless of it's difficulty. I've always asked myself "why am I learning this, i'll never do this after school", but then I finally realized why exactly you learn it.

Learning advanced math (math beyond early years of high school imho) isn't supposed to really teach you directly what it does. For instance, you're right; you'll probably never have to find the derivative of a complex function in real life (key word being probably). But that isn't what you're supposed to get out of it. I think it's supposed to indirectly teach you problem solving skills that you can apply elsewhere. Those tough classes and painful formulas all teach you how to solve complex problems. That is what you're supposed to get out of it, methinks.

I may be wrong, but it's just my take on it. I'm not a big fan of math, but can sorta understand why we learn it.

This is so true. Ive taken trig, stats, and now im in calculus. I probably won't use a large majority of what I learn, but I still enjoy math becuase of the way it teaches you to solve problems.

[shakermaker113]

Learning advanced math (math beyond early years of high school imho) isn't supposed to really teach you directly what it does. For instance, you're right; you'll probably never have to find the derivative of a complex function in real life (key word being probably). But that isn't what you're supposed to get out of it. I think it's supposed to indirectly teach you problem solving skills that you can apply elsewhere. Those tough classes and painful formulas all teach you how to solve complex problems. That is what you're supposed to get out of it, methinks.

spot on. it's an exercise. most of what you do at the gym you never need to do in real life either.

I enjoy math rock.

I never understood that name.

[Aurgasm]

this thread sucks.


a fucking math thread. come on

[MeowMixer]

for a minute i didnt realize you were joking.

i hope you are joking...

Really?

[boarderwoozel3]

I had the same reaction :/

The language class I'm in is tough.

[Aurgasm]

I had the same reaction :/

The language class I'm in is tough.

what class?

[boarderwoozel3]

Understanding Language. We started with the form and structure class words in excruciating detail and are now using that base to cover phrase structure and transformational grammar.

[Aurgasm]

oi...


are you a linguistics student?

[boarderwoozel3]

Nope, journalism. It will definitely improve my writing.

[Aurgasm]

It certainly will.

multimedia skills will make you an asset though, trust me.

[boarderwoozel3]

That's what I'm banking on. Even though print journalism is going the way of the dodo.

[sbessiso]

I just don't care. It's way too difficult and stressful for me. I'm not even in college math :nono

This is funny though, I had class yesterday and we had a math quiz. By the end of it I counted 22 heads. Out of those 22 there was one C, one D, and the rest Fs! He was soo mad at us

[TomAz]

Math is beauty. Math is purity. Math is not subject to interpretation; it is not a social construct; it just is. The rules of mathematics are the same regardless of where you are or what culture you're from or how you write it down. It's one of the core elements of being.

[Boourns]

MATH POWER!

Yeah, my school sent me to the local math olympics a few times...have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place ribbons, too.

[rskapcat]

I always did well in math classes, even my college ones. And I always thought of linguistics as the "math" of language. Yeah, I'm a nerd.

[disgustipated]

This is funny though, I had class yesterday and we had a math quiz. By the end of it I counted 22 heads. Out of those 22 there was one C, one D, and the rest Fs! He was soo mad at us

Your class must be held in the portable buildings next to the football fields.

[marooko]

nah, math. the state university in st peterburg would've let me dick around with probability theory and theoretical cybernetics and i would have written a crowd pleasing book about number theory.

instead I moved to San Francisco.

it was a joke really.

that sounds pretty intense. what are you doing in SF if you dont mind me asking.

[shakermaker113]

The rules of mathematics are the same regardless of where you are or what culture you're from or how you write it down. It's one of the core elements of being.

it bothers me when people say that. math is just a language. it's a very practical language, but still just a language. math is not god.

[TomAz]

math is just a language. it's a very practical language, but still just a language.

This is falsehood. You do not grasp the concept and have come up with this rationalization to justify yourself.

[M Sparks]

Math is the most useful thing taught in public schools, along with basic language skills.

Although, I will admit, I don't understand the focus on Algebra. Geometry is far more useful in the real world, but it often isn't required.

[All Your Base]

Way back in the 1800s when I was in school...

Algebra/Trig/Calc = interesting puzzles.

Statistics/Analysis = the fucking devil.

[marooko]

i hate algebra. geometry and trigonometry, fuck yeah.

[marooko]

Way back in the 1800s when I was in school...

Algebra/Trig/Calc = interesting puzzles.

Statistics/Analysis = the fucking devil.


yay for statics and strengths of materials. fucking engineers. your post reminded me of that shit. wasnt so much hard, just took so much fucking time.

[BlackSwan]

Math is beauty. Math is purity. Math is not subject to interpretation; it is not a social construct; it just is. The rules of mathematics are the same regardless of where you are or what culture you're from or how you write it down. It's one of the core elements of being.

Would you say that math is truth?

[Jon Blazed]

You should just think of every number as a dick. I'm sure you love to multiply dicks all day long.

[All Your Base]

Would you say that math is truth?

There's no greater truth in the universe, so yeah. I guess so.

[TomAz]

Math is a truth.

[locachica73]

I hated math in junior high, then I had one teacher that somehow flipped the switch for me and I got it, finally, after years of failing the subject. Suddenly I became a math tutor to other kids and got straight A's. Then they put me in geometry, I missed 3 days of class due to being sick and came back fucking lost and failed. In college I again did great in math, helped other kids and got straight A's. Then I took accounting, thinking well I am good in math I should rock this. Yeah, not so much. It is hard to retrain your brain to left and right. But your right, there isn't much use for math in adulthood unless your figuring out a sale or selling dope. Then fractions and percentages come in handy.

[TomAz]

see i think loca's on to something.


People who say they "hate math" don't really hate math. Saying you hate math is like saying you hate logical thinking. What people really hate is the way math is taught. Which is understandable I think.

[Monklish]

Some people really do hate logical thinking though, Tom.


We call these people asshats.

[TomAz]

Also I think math is very important in everyday life, especially living in a democracy. Learning math as a kid gives one a better intuitive grasp of numbers as an adult. So when politicians start throwing around statistics it's easier to see which ones make sense and which ones are just loaded bullshit.

example:
from this article (http://www.stolaf.edu/other/extend/Numeracy/steen.html):

('numeracy' is the word used to mean mathematical competence, akin to 'literacy' in reading and writing).


The relentless quantification of society continues unabated. The tendency to reduce complex information to a few numbers is overwhelming--in health care, in social policy, in political analysis, in education. ... Although the widespread availability of data should enrich public discourse, inevitable over-simplifications and misinterpretations may ultimately cheapen it. ... Instead of enhancing Jeffersonian democracy, limited numeracy can easily shift the balance to a technocracy.

Innumeracy hurts in other ways as well. For example, public policy issues may increasingly move beyond the intellectual grasp of citizens who lack appropriate skills in quantitative reasoning. Innumeracy encourages the view that all opinions are equally valid, that whenever there is disagreement the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Innumeracy thus becomes another means of disenfranchisement: by reinforcing the idea that truth is relative and unknowable, people with the least defenses against charlatans will be most vulnerable.

[shakermaker113]

This is falsehood. You do not grasp the concept and have come up with this rationalization to justify yourself.

I have a degree in math dude. I grasp the concept just fine.

[TomAz]

Then I don't know how you could think it's "just a language". 2+2=4 in any language and any culture. the way you write it is a language, yes, but the fact of it is not.

[M Sparks]

I substitute teach every once in a while. I think a major problem is that the more math aptitude you have, the harder it is to teach or explain. For relatively simple math, I rarely use any sort of process...I just look at it an the answer is obvious. It's like saying "what color is this?"

But then, when I'm trying to explain it to someone, it's frustrating to walk them through it. It gets even weirder with very young kids...it's impossible for me to explain to a 6 year old why 2 + 2 is not 22.

I understand people's frustrations with higher math functions, but for basic functions, percentages, ect...it's just hard-wired into my brain and I'm baffled by people who aren't built the same way.

I also like math as a subject because it's absolute. If I'm wrong, it's because I'm wrong. I used to go nuts in Lit classes, where the grading is subjective. If I experience a piece of art differently than the teacher, that shouldn't make me "wrong" when it comes to an essay test.

[Monklish]

Really? It's impossible for you to explain that? Have you ever considered showing them four apples?

Here's my problem with math--teachers are fucking morons.

[All Your Base]

Really? It's impossible for you to explain that? Have you ever considered showing them four apples?

Here's my problem with math--teachers are fucking morons.

DING!

<steps on soapbox>
One of the big problems with our public education system is that pretty much ANY teacher can eventually get tenured, whether or not they are any good at teaching.

If I wasn't a good System Engineer, I'd have been laid off in one of the many rounds of layoffs we've had over the years.

That is a problem.
<steps down>

[locachica73]

Really? It's impossible for you to explain that? Have you ever considered showing them four apples?

Here's my problem with math--teachers are fucking morons.

I agree, and most teachers, especially older teachers, fucking hate kids. My daughter had a huge problem with one of her teachers and kept getting in trouble, I finally went to meet with the guy and he was the biggest douche bag I have ever met. He was about 110 years old, hated all kids, couldn't even remember my childs name and had her confused with other students. I think most teachers need to retire after teaching for 10 years because they all inevitably come to hate kids.

[PotVsKtl]

I have a degree in math dude. I grasp the concept just fine.

What sort of goon are you? Why the fuck do you think we always talk to aliens in mathematical concepts? You should go get a degree in being bad at understanding things you have degrees in, and then not understand that degree.

[Aurgasm]

That's what I'm banking on. Even though print journalism is going the way of the dodo.

Good writing will always be valuable... even if the traditional medium disappears. its really sad though..

[shakermaker113]

Then I don't know how you could think it's "just a language". 2+2=4 in any language and any culture. the way you write it is a language, yes, but the fact of it is not.

it's just our way of describing relationships between things. it doesn't change those relationships, neither does it define them. it just describes them. it is a language. sometimes we find mathematics is wrong and have to correct it.

to say that those things mathematics describes exist the same regardles of language and culture is true, but it's not a very consequential statement. a lot of things exist independent of us.

What sort of goon are you? Why the fuck do you think we always talk to aliens in mathematical concepts? You should go get a degree in being bad at understanding things you have degrees in, and then not understand that degree.

I'm a goon who doesn't fucking talk to aliens.

[menikmati]

irony

[TomAz]

it's just our way of describing relationships between things. it doesn't change those relationships, neither does it define them. it just describes them. it is a language. sometimes we find mathematics is wrong and have to correct it.

If there were no things, if there was nothingness instead of being, mathematics would still exist and still be true. And we don't correct mathematics, we correct our understanding of it.

[TeamCoachellaHellYeah]

I just never had great math teachers...and what fucked me up was going from public to private...

[Monklish]

If there was nothingness there would still be math? Sorry, that's silly.

[Monklish]

At the end of the day, 2 + 2 = 4 only means anything if you first have an agreed understand of what "2," "+," "=," and "4" means. The operations may be, theoretically, truths (at least in as far as we've been able to determine in this subjective perception of the world), but those operations have no meaning without a common base of terminology. Other languages are just vastly more complicated with a greater degree of nuance and variation.

[BlackSwan]

At the most basic level, math, like everything else, is still dependent on the degree to which humans can accurately perceive existence around them.

[locachica73]

I just never had great math teachers...and what fucked me up was going from public to private...

My one great math teacher was 8th grade, he got fired halfway through the year for showing us pictures of his summer trip to Israel. They fired him for preaching religion in school. He just showed us some fucking slides. I hated school after that.

[PotVsKtl]

sometimes we find mathematics is wrong and have to correct it.

You should really have your degree taken away.

[menikmati]

My favorite math teacher was in 7th grade....he was a cool short little balding dude, and he brought in his acoustic guitar a lot, and sometimes he would play for us. I remember him belting out a rendition of Come As You Are. It was great.

A few months back I was walking into Target wearing a Nirvana shirt and I saw him walking out and past me...he saw my Nirvana shirt and I think recognized me, but I didn't wanna stop and chat since he was with family and what not.

[marooko]

My balls itch.

The distance across my four fingers is 2.5 inches. assuming my balls are 1.5 inches in dia., how many passes will it take to cover the entire area?

[TomAz]

If there was nothingness there would still be math? Sorry, that's silly.

of course it is.


At the most basic level, math, like everything else, is still dependent on the degree to which humans can accurately perceive existence around them.

No. This is like saying that the universe is dependent on the degree to which humans can accurately perceive it. the universe is going to exist whether we perceive it or not.

[Monklish]

Descartes would have issue with that.

Then again, I don't see him anywhere so I think he might be bullshit.

[TomAz]

He quit thinking.

[Monklish]

Could you express that witticism in the form of a mathematical expression?



Yeah, what's so fucking cool about math now, huh?

[BlackSwan]

No. This is like saying that the universe is dependent on the degree to which humans can accurately perceive it. the universe is going to exist whether we perceive it or not.

No, it's not. It is like saying that the perceived rules of math maybe inaccurate, or at least not the whole truth.

Either way, once you stopped perceiving reality you would have no way to know whether or not the universe continued to exist.

[chairmenmeow47]

Here's my problem with math--teachers are fucking morons.

SERIOUSLY.

i had such a hard time with math in school because of this and outdated textbooks from like 1964 that were so dry and used "real life" situations that had nothing to do with my life. not to mention i had a teacher in high school that refused to speak the number 8 and instead would say "ocho".

but when i came back to college, the books had changed for the better with more visual explanations & better real life examples; however the teachers were the same. they don't know the answer and then give really vague answers when you can't be vague with math. or they'd tell you that you "didn't need to know".

so i just worked out of the book and worked my ass off. i worked every problem i could find in there and got help when i needed it. that was the only way i understood and passed. unfortunately though i don't use it and have lost a lot of it. sometimes at work i have to be refreshed though and i can pick it up again. so to me it is also like a language in the sense that if you don't use it, you lose it rather quickly. someday i hope to reach higher levels of math. what's funny is my current math teacher (who is studying to be an actuary, guy knows his shit when it comes to math) says that foreign language is actually above math as far as difficulty, because at least math has logic to it.

[TomAz]

No, it's not. It is like saying that the perceived rules of math maybe inaccurate, or at least not the whole truth.

Either way, once you stopped perceiving reality you would have no way to know whether or not the universe continued to exist.

The perception of math is a different thing than the math itself.

[BlackSwan]

The perception of math is a different thing than the math itself.

How do you figure humans can know something beyond their own perception of it?

[TomAz]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that things don't need to be perceived to exist.

[BlackSwan]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that things don't need to be perceived to exist.

I agree with that, but I never said they didn't.

[chairmenmeow47]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that things don't need to be perceived to exist.

do things that are perceived to exist, exist then? god, ect?

[TomAz]

why do you keep typing "ect" when you mean "etc"? is this one of those internet things like "teh"?

and no of course not, there are false perceptions.

[chairmenmeow47]

i probably just type it incorrectly. it's not an internet thing, sorry.

and you seem awfully certain on such a long-standing philosophical issue there, tom :p

[TomAz]

I may have misunderstood your question then.


I'm just saying perception of something does not by itself prove (or disprove) that thing's existence. I don't see anything controversial in that statement.

[sbessiso]

I'm glad you guys are having a nice little discussion here. I just needed to vent, I understand the importance of math I really do. It really is a kryptonite to me though. I just wish I didnt have to take any classes. And what is really bumming me out is the fact that the class im in now is the one right below first level college algebra. So after I pass this (assuming), I still have TWO more math credits to take. Its just so tough

[shakermaker113]

If there were no things, if there was nothingness instead of being, mathematics would still exist and still be true. And we don't correct mathematics, we correct our understanding of it.

mathematics is a means of describing reality. it's our perception of reality. I don't see reason to think it is anything more than that.

[locachica73]

I'm glad you guys are having a nice little discussion here. I just needed to vent, I understand the importance of math I really do. It really is a kryptonite to me though. I just wish I didnt have to take any classes. And what is really bumming me out is the fact that the class im in now is the one right below first level college algebra. So after I pass this (assuming), I still have TWO more math credits to take. Its just so tough

Try finding a tutor, a hot manly tutor. :p

[TomAz]

mathematics is a means of describing reality. it's our perception of reality. I don't see reason to think it is anything more than that.

Be specific. Be concrete. Give me examples. Tell me how Euler's Identity describes reality, and which part of reality does it describe?

[boarderwoozel3]

Math is beauty. Math is purity. Math is not subject to interpretation; it is not a social construct; it just is. The rules of mathematics are the same regardless of where you are or what culture you're from or how you write it down. It's one of the core elements of being.

it bothers me when people say that. math is just a language. it's a very practical language, but still just a language. math is not god.

This is falsehood. You do not grasp the concept and have come up with this rationalization to justify yourself.

Tom is right, Math is not a language. Languages have base rules too but unlike math, it has the ability to expand, contract or shift to the needs of it's users. Form class words can change, math is just a fixed set of laws.

[boarderwoozel3]

Try finding a tutor, a hot manly tutor. :p

Ha, sage advice. Math might even be fun after that ;).

[shakermaker113]

Be specific. Be concrete. Give me examples. Tell me how Euler's Identity describes reality, and which part of reality does it describe?

it describes this part right here. ----->


...I think we are talking about the same things. but what I refer to as 'reality' you refer to as 'mathematics', and what I refer to as 'mathematics' you refer to as 'the perception of mathematics'. if you make that translation we seem to be saying the same exact thing.

I just refuse to refer to a human language as if it is independent of us. it's awfully big headed.

[locachica73]

Ha, sage advice. Math might even be fun after that ;).

Hell Yeah!!! I dated a guy that was going to one of the local trade schools, I use to help him study with a very healthy reward system. He aced his tests. :p

[shakermaker113]

math is just a fixed set of laws.

every mathematical system has a fixed set of premises and rules. and mathematicians spend forever learning the implications of those premises. they discover new properties (and prove suspected but previously unproven ones) all the time. math isn't static, we're contantly building upon what we know, and discovering new things. and that's never going to end. math is not just a fixed set of laws.

[PotVsKtl]

Are you familiar with proofs?

[Monklish]

Math once proved that it's impossible for airplanes to fly. Just sayin'.

[menikmati]

No, it was man's misunderstanding and misuse of applied math that led to that conclusion.

[fatbastard]

Agr3GmFJKEA

lstDdzedgcE

[PotVsKtl]

Shut up.

[vogina]

I'm glad you guys are having a nice little discussion here. I just needed to vent, I understand the importance of math I really do. It really is a kryptonite to me though. I just wish I didnt have to take any classes. And what is really bumming me out is the fact that the class im in now is the one right below first level college algebra. So after I pass this (assuming), I still have TWO more math credits to take. Its just so tough

Whats your major? Chem, Engineering, Bio? I think I might be in the same level of math as you right now. I have the current math, then at CSUF Math 150A & 150B.

I tried to place into them, but missed it by 3 points. Fuck the fat bitch in the math department. GET OFF YOUR FUCKING CHAIR AND EXERCISE YOU CUNT!

[BlackSwan]

You can debate the details all you want, when it comes down to it this is still lying beneath it all...

At the most basic level, math, like everything else, is still dependent on the degree to which humans can accurately perceive existence around them.

[boarderwoozel3]

it describes this part right here. ----->


...I think we are talking about the same things. but what I refer to as 'reality' you refer to as 'mathematics', and what I refer to as 'mathematics' you refer to as 'the perception of mathematics'. if you make that translation we seem to be saying the same exact thing.

I just refuse to refer to a human language as if it is independent of us. it's awfully big headed.

Of course human language isn't independent of us. It's an arbitrary human construct for communication.

[TomAz]

every mathematical system has a fixed set of premises and rules. and mathematicians spend forever learning the implications of those premises. they discover new properties (and prove suspected but previously unproven ones) all the time. math isn't static, we're contantly building upon what we know, and discovering new things. and that's never going to end. math is not just a fixed set of laws.

See I disagree with this and here's why. If what you said were true, then people in Bora Bora would have come up with different premises and rules than people in Leipzig. They'd have a different mathematics with different results. In actuality, while one culture may be further along than another in the understanding of mathematics, what mathematics they do have in common is the same -- they agree with each other. It's not 2+2=4 in one place and 2+2=5 in another.

This is why the language analogy doesn't work for me either.

[vogina]

I hope your heads explode with.

[vogina]

See I disagree with this and here's why. If what you said were true, then people in Bora Bora would have come up with different premises and rules than people in Leipzig. They'd have a different mathematics with different results. In actuality, while one culture may be further along than another in the understanding of mathematics, but, what mathematics they do have in common is the same -- they agree with each other. It's not 2+2=4 in one place and 2+2=5 in another.

This is why the language analogy doesn't work for me either.

Get a PhD in math and you get asked why is 2+2equal to 4

[sbessiso]

Whats your major? Chem, Engineering, Bio? I think I might be in the same level of math as you right now. I have the current math, then at CSUF Math 150A & 150B.

I tried to place into them, but missed it by 3 points. Fuck the fat bitch in the math department. GET OFF YOUR FUCKING CHAIR AND EXERCISE YOU CUNT!

Dude, not even. Right now i'm officially a journalism major. I dont want math!!

Agr3GmFJKEA

Nice.

ADont you think that i'm bound to react now??

[shakermaker113]

See I disagree with this and here's why. If what you said were true, then people in Bora Bora would have come up with different premises and rules than people in Leipzig. They'd have a different mathematics with different results. In actuality, while one culture may be further along than another in the understanding of mathematics, but, what mathematics they do have in common is the same -- they agree with each other. It's not 2+2=4 in one place and 2+2=5 in another.

This is why the language analogy doesn't work for me either.

if you start with different premises you get different results. a lot of the things we take to be "fact" (e.g. that the angles of a triangle always add up to 180 degress) are only actually facts in euclidian space. if you work in a non euclidian space (i.e. you start with different premises) you have different results. all mathetmatical truths are relative to their premises. i.e. "if a and b are true, then c follows...".

[locachica73]

Dude, not even. Right now i'm officially a journalism major. I dont want math!!

This is why I have a hard time with they typical college. I took a course at a trade school to learn all I could about computers so that I could get a job outside of the factory. They offered me computerized accounting as well which I took. I hated accounting for the record but my first job outside of college was with a construction company and they quickly had me start doing some of their accounting. I ended up in construction accounting for the next 7 years. I worked my way up to Senior Project Accountant and was doing the work of the assistant controller. My company, at the time, had a strict no degree no promotion rule. They wanted me to get my accounting degree to move up to the next level. I started to look into it and would have had to take English 101 and several other lame classes that had nothing to do with what I wanted to learn. I declined because at the time, having two young kids and a full time job and husband I just didn't have the time. I ended up changing fields because I realized that it is mostly women in accounting and I have a hard time dealing with alot of women. I am glad with the choices I made in life but still get frustrated with the whole thing when I think about it. The promotion would have been a significant pay increase but I just didn't want to go through the entire hassle of 4 years plus just to do work I was already capable of doing.

[marooko]

whats 2+2? jello.

[TomAz]

if you start with different premises you get different results. a lot of the things we take to be "fact" (e.g. that the angles of a triangle always add up to 180 degress) are only actually facts in euclidian space. if you work in a non euclidian space (i.e. you start with different premises) you have different results. all mathetmatical truths are relative to their premises. i.e. "if a and b are true, then c follows...".

You totally missed my point.

[boarderwoozel3]

if you start with different premises you get different results. a lot of the things we take to be "fact" (e.g. that the angles of a triangle always add up to 180 degress) are only actually facts in euclidian space. if you work in a non euclidian space (i.e. you start with different premises) you have different results. all mathetmatical truths are relative to their premises. i.e. "if a and b are true, then c follows...".

That's the thing about math, everyone starts with the same premises and rules, that's why it's universal/fact/law. Math has no dialect or different ways to say the same thing, you apply a rule or you don't.

[BlackSwan]

shaker... check out the default thread.

[Monklish]

See I disagree with this and here's why. If what you said were true, then people in Bora Bora would have come up with different premises and rules than people in Leipzig. They'd have a different mathematics with different results. In actuality, while one culture may be further along than another in the understanding of mathematics, what mathematics they do have in common is the same -- they agree with each other. It's not 2+2=4 in one place and 2+2=5 in another.

This is why the language analogy doesn't work for me either.

Some cultures have different systems of numbers though, in which case the possibility for translation is non-existent until a base system of relationships is established.

[shakermaker113]

You totally missed my point.

no I didn't. you disagreed with me. then I reinforced my point.

you also deduced from my post that people in Bora Bora would have different math. I didn't comment on that because it's actually not a logical conclusion from what I said, and was missing my point. what I said was that if you start from different premises you have different results. that doesn't mean people in Bora Bora will start from different premises. and if they found the same things we did then they must have been working under the same premises.

That's the thing about math, everyone starts with the same premises and rules, that's why it's universal/fact/law. Math has no dialect or different ways to say the same thing, you apply a rule or you don't.

I already pointed out that there are systems that start from different premises and rules. Randy pointed that out too. and math has many different ways to say the same thing.

I'm not saying the things mathematics proves aren't true or wouldn't be true if we weren't around. of course they would still be true. but mathematics itself is our language. we created it to describe complex relationship that we witness.

[TomAz]

Some cultures have different systems of numbers though, in which case the possibility for translation is non-existent until a base system of relationships is established.

I've said previously that different cultures may write their mathematics down differently.

[Monklish]

Right, but I don't understand how that makes it especially different than any other kind of language. Do the Chinese write their mathematics from right to left?

[BlackSwan]

we created it to describe complex relationship that we witness.

Bingo.

[TomAz]

that doesn't mean people in Bora Bora will start from different premises. and if they found the same things we did then they must have been working under the same presmises.

You're kidding me now, right?

Why would people in a totally different culture with little or no contact (until relatively recently) with the rest of the world develop the exact same set of "premises"? Are you gonna tell me it's because we all share the same gravitational constant or some bullshit like that?


Your 'non-euclidean space' example totally missed the point. Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean space is not a "premise", it is a condition of fact. the fact is that the mathematical law which states that "the sum of the angles of a triangle in euclidean space equals 180 degrees" is absolutely independent of any "premise". You can't show me any alternative "premise" which makes triangles add up to 190 degrees under those conditions. Unless you want to play semantic games and talk about 4-sided triangles or something.

[TomAz]

Right, but I don't understand how that makes it especially different than any other kind of language. Do the Chinese write their mathematics from right to left?

The writing of the mathematics is not the same as the mathematics itself.

[boarderwoozel3]

no I didn't. you disagreed with me. then I reinforced my point.

you also deduced from my point that people in Bora Bora would have different math. I didn't comment on that because it's actually not a logical conclusion from what I said, and was missing my point. what I said was that if you start from different premises you have different results. that doesn't mean people in Bora Bora will start from different premises. and if they found the same things we did then they must have been working under the same premises.



I already pointed out that there are systems that start from different premises and rules. Randy pointed that out too. and math has many different ways to say the same thing.

I'm not saying the things mathematics proves aren't true or wouldn't be true if we weren't around. of course they would still be true. but mathematics itself is our language. we created it to describe complex relationship that we witness.

Huh? Isn't that a contradiction or would it not mean that one of the systems is wrong if they're going to produce different results to the same problem?

Anyway, my sticking point in all of this is that math is not a language because one of the fundamental aspects of language is its arbitrary nature. Math is not arbitrary, the symbols and signs we use to represent the rules are but the rules themselves are set in stone. It simply explains the physical relationships of the world around us, yes? Physics indicates that there isn't too much wiggle room in those physical relationships.

[fatbastard]

1 cup of uncooked rice + 2 cups of water = cooked rice

[locachica73]

yes, but how many cups of cooked rice???? that is the question.

[boarderwoozel3]

Right, but I don't understand how that makes it especially different than any other kind of language. Do the Chinese write their mathematics from right to left?

It's different because in terms of grammar, there are many different strategies possible for marking the relationship between the different nouns of a sentence. Why languages follow one or another strategy is arbitrary, not based not on any natural (biological or physical) reasoning--like math--but on mere accidents of historical variation.

French vs. English vs. Thai for example.

[fatbastard]

I'll answer this question in 20 minutes.

[Monklish]

It's different because in terms of grammar, there are many different strategies possible for marking the relationship between the different nouns of a sentence. Why languages follow one or another strategy is arbitrary, not based not on any natural (biological or physical) reasoning--like math--but on mere accidents of historical variation.

French vs. English vs. Thai for example.

Right, but this is because there are infinitely more nuanced variations of the matter that needs to be related in language than in math.

[boarderwoozel3]

I'll answer this question in 20 minutes.

I had to look up Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean space. Definitely learned something new today.

[Mr. Dylanja]

Sumthing in this thread just doesn't add up.

[amyzzz]

:rolleyes

[PotVsKtl]

Outcome of this thread? shakermaker113 is at least as, if not more dumb than sbessiso.

[Monklish]

Is Shaker gay? If not I'm gonna say he's smarter.

[shakermaker113]

YWhy would people in a totally different culture with little or no contact (until relatively recently) with the rest of the world develop the exact same set of "premises"? Are you gonna tell me it's because we all share the same gravitational constant or some bullshit like that?

I don't know. I guess because it began from simple counting systems based on every day life.

Your 'non-euclidean space' example totally missed the point. Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean space is not a "premise", it is a condition of fact. the fact is that the mathematical law which states that "the sum of the angles of a triangle in euclidean space equals 180 degrees" is absolutely independent of any "premise". You can't show me any alternative "premise" which makes triangles add up to 190 degrees under those conditions. Unless you want to play semantic games and talk about 4-sided triangles or something.

that's what I was trying to say. any mathematical 'truth' is true only under certain conditions.

euclidian geometry has five premises (or postulates, as they are usually called). if you are working in euclidian space you are assuming those five postulates to be true. they are your premises. non euclidian geometries share the first four postulates with euclidian geometry, but each have a different fifth postulate. that triangles' angles always add up to 180 only holds true under the euclidian postulates. once you change the postulates, a triangle's properties start to change also.

to ask me to "show me any alternative 'premise' which makes triangles add up to 190 degrees under those conditions" doesn't make terribly much sense. to change the premises means we changed the conditions.

Outcome of this thread? shakermaker113 is at least as, if not more dumb than sbessiso.

what is your problem?

Is Shaker gay? If not I'm gonna say he's smarter.

take THAT salah.

[samiksha]

Don't let Frankie aka samiksha do your homework. you'll fail, like i did.

Bitch

[sbessiso]

Outcome of this thread? shakermaker113 is at least as, if not more dumb than sbessiso.

whoa.