Dear State of Maine

[RageAgainstTheAoki]

Fuck you, too.

[gaypalmsprings]

Maine sux. I guess California does, too.

[M Sparks]

It's well thought out arguments like these that will eventually change the tide.

[psycobetabuckdown]

[gaypalmsprings]

Gay leaders blame TV ads, Obama for loss in Maine

By LISA LEFF and DAVID CRARY (AP) – 2 hours ago

SAN FRANCISCO — Stunned and angry, national gay rights leaders Wednesday blamed scare-mongering ads — and President Barack Obama's lack of engagement — for a bitter election setback in Maine that could alter the dynamics for both sides in the gay-marriage debate.

Conservatives, in contrast, celebrated Maine voters' rejection of a law that would have allowed gay couples to wed, depicting it as a warning shot that should deter politicians in other states from pushing for same-sex marriage.

"Every time the citizens have voted on marriage, they have always sided with natural marriage," said Mathew Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based Christian legal group. "Maine dramatically illustrates the will of the people, and politicians should wake up and listen."

Gay activists were frustrated that Obama, who insists he staunchly supports their overall civil rights agenda, didn't speak out forcefully in defense of Maine's marriage law before Tuesday's referendum. The law was repealed in a vote of 53 percent to 47 percent.

"President Obama missed an opportunity to state his position against these discriminatory attacks with the clarity and moral imperative that would have helped in this close fight," said Evan Wolfson of the national advocacy group Freedom to Marry. "The anti-gay forces are throwing millions of dollars into various unsubtle ads aimed at scaring people, so subtle statements from the White House are not enough."

[ficklecycle]

[Dale Gribble]

Originally Posted by M Sparks

It's well thought out arguments like these that will eventually change the tide.

This.

[MissingPerson]

I really thought they might win this one, too.

[Sleepingrock]

Why are conservatives alive?

[RageAgainstTheAoki]

Did that snarky remark feel good, M Sparks? Who said I was attempting to change the tide with this posting? I did that by dedicating 18 hours to phonebanking for Maine Equality over the last month. This was mainly a venting of my frustration. Are we not allowed to react to the vote?

EDIT:
Oh, were you referring to GayPalmSprings' posting? If so, I apologize. If not, I stand by it. Ha ha.

[Dale Gribble]

Originally Posted by Sleepingrock

Why are conservatives alive?

Yeah, people who don't think like you should die.

Not a conservative by the way.

[Sleepingrock]

Originally Posted by Dale Gribble

Yeah, people who don't think like you should die.

Not a conservative by the way.

Hehe, it wasn't meant to seem that harsh just... I just find it hard to believe so many people in the states don't believe in equality... if it doesn't affect you you shouldn't have such a big say in it

[RageAgainstTheAoki]

Originally Posted by Sleepingrock

Why are conservatives alive?

Well, that's a rather unnecessary statement. Though it does bring up a rather unfortunate fact. People tend to vote on this issue along lines of age and religiosity. I haven't seen data on Maine yet, but during most off-cycle elections/non-Presidential elections young voters stay away in droves but the blue hairs still turn out. The supporters of this ballot measure knew that time was not on their side. By getting to the ballot box while the marriage debate was still fresh in Maine voters' minds and during an election in which younger, more liberal voters might not turn out they helped solidify their win. If only more of the older voters thought like Phillip Spooner:

[Drinkey McDrinkerstein]

Originally Posted by Sleepingrock

Hehe, it wasn't meant to seem that harsh just... I just find it hard to believe so many people in the states don't believe in equality... if it doesn't affect you you shouldn't have such a big say in it

There are more "liberals" that are opposed to gay marriage than you'd think, and vice versa with "conservatives"

[JebusLives]

if there are, those "liberals" should look up the word "liberty".

I do however personally know a number of gay supporting (and even gay!) conservatives. Canadian conservatives, mind you.

[Drinkey McDrinkerstein]

Originally Posted by JebusLives

if there are, those "liberals" should look up the word "liberty".

I do however personally know a number of gay supporting (and even gay!) conservatives. Canadian conservatives, mind you.

"Liberal," in political terms, has very little to do with liberty

[Archie Bunker]

The will of the people opposed it.

You can't bitch about that.

As much as it might bother you, not everyone has the same political beliefs as you.

[gaypalmsprings]

[M Sparks]

Originally Posted by RageAgainstTheAoki

Did that snarky remark feel good, M Sparks? Who said I was attempting to change the tide with this posting? I did that by dedicating 18 hours to phonebanking for Maine Equality over the last month. This was mainly a venting of my frustration. Are we not allowed to react to the vote?

All I know is I have always been in support of gay marriage, and yet I consider changing my mind every time I hear most of the supporting arguments. Most of the tactics are illogical, hypocritical, and/or based on pure emotion. (I don't know what tactics your group used.)

It's gotten to the point where I am really closer to being AGAINST straight marriage, because it's the only way I can resolve the logic. I think we all should stop letting the government and religion define our relationships.

Perhaps 4 percent were turned off by the confrontational approach, which was enough to lose the battle. The best arguments I have seen were based in logic.

[Monklish]

Guys, let's face facts:

faggots are gross. I mean, look at me. I'm a disgusting pedophile obsessed with banging little boys against their will. If we let this shit get outta hand, pretty soon we'll be fucking dogs.

[Drinkey McDrinkerstein]

Originally Posted by M Sparks

It's gotten to the point where I am really closer to being AGAINST straight marriage, because it's the only way I can resolve the logic. I think we all should stop letting the government and religion define our relationships.

This is where i'm at. Traditionalists are stupid because the original concept of marriage simply doesn't make sense anymore or have validity in this day and age

[HAMMERHEAD]

SODOMIZE INTOLERANCE!!

[unitedwesuck]

WHAT's that creepy town in all of Stephen King's books!?

[MissingPerson]

Originally Posted by Archie Bunker

As much as it might bother you, not everyone has the same political beliefs as you.

You have some fucking neck to act like this was some noble blow for freedom. It was literally exactly the opposite, and no amount of mental gymnastics can wrestle a sane mind into imagining it was anything otherwise.

[Monklish]

I wonder how long it will be before my new sig gets deleted.

[unitedwesuck]

some just live in their own little worlds

[M Sparks]

Originally Posted by Drinkey McDrinkerstein

This is where i'm at. Traditionalists are stupid because the original concept of marriage simply doesn't make sense anymore or have validity in this day and age

To expand...

People that are against Gay marriage tend to argue that it's a holy ceremony, that we shouldn't change their traditional religious definition. Which is a fine argument. So why is the government in the marriage business? What happened to separation of church and state?

MOST arguments FOR Gay marriage are based on some kind of irrational "we're being left out of the club" thing. If it was truly a religious ceremony, then why would anyone want to take part in a ceremony presided over by an intolerant group that condemns you just for existing? It's like a black guy complaining that he's not allowed to join the KKK.

If the government was not allowed to perform marriages, then there would be no civil rights issues. A civil union would be a simple legal contract, and everyone would receive the same rights. It would be up to each individual religion to decide whether they would perform same-sex marriages or not. The "marriage" itself would simply be a spiritual ceremony. You could choose to be bound spiritually without the legal aspect, or simply be legally bound, or both.

Which...really...is how it is now for straights. Some couples go to the courthouse and get legally bound in a cold, boring ceremony. Some couples have elaborate ceremonies like handfastings and never actually get "married". Some spend $20,000 on a wedding in a huge church, but they still get the same certificate as the people who went to the courthouse.

I want gays to have all the same rights as straights, but there are more constructive ways to go about it rather than crying over the definition of a word that means something different to everyone, and condemning those who don't agree rather than trying to reason with them. Honestly, I've seen people be turned around simply by showing them that there are some rights that AREN'T granted by civil unions. They have strong feelings about the religious aspects of the word marriage, but they become willing to get past those feelings in the interest of civil rights when they see that things still aren't equal. Just think of how many more people could be reached if the problem was attacked at the legal level rather than the emotional level.

Or, join my crusade. BAN GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED MARRIAGE NOW!

[JebusLives]

Originally Posted by Archie Bunker

The will of the people opposed it.

You can't bitch about that.

As much as it might bother you, not everyone has the same political beliefs as you.

this is exactly why you don't put everything to a vote. Tyranny by the majority. Thank your god the result is more or less unconstitutional. Hopefully the justice department grows some balls and fights this.

(this is how we got gay marriage, by the way. The ban was deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court. And you know what? Life goes on, the same as ever.)

[JebusLives]

M Sparks, I tend to agree... Marriage should not be a legal arrangement at all. They should just search and replace "Marriage" with "civil union" in the lawbooks and leave it at that. Then if gay people want to get "married" they can find a church that will do it for them.

However, as it stands now, Marriage entitles straight people to something gay people can't have. And that isn't fair.

[HAMMERHEAD]

Originally Posted by M Sparks

TJust think of how many more people could be reached if the problem was attacked at the legal level rather than the emotional level.

this implies that people will listen with their big boy/girl brains and use reason, which is simply not the case when dealing with religious zealots. california attacked it at a legal level. and then prop 8 happened.

i support your ban for government sanctioned marriage.